Re: [Fedora] Re: Nvidia sucks, sucks, sucks !

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On Thu, 2006-11-09 at 14:33 -0700, Kim Lux wrote:
> On Thu, 2006-11-09 at 14:04 -0700, Ashley M. Kirchner wrote:
> > Kim Lux wrote:
> > > Here is my post on the subject:
> > >
> > > "When I install a new kernel, my
> > > mouse doesn't quit working !"
> > >
> > > I didn't say the kernel provides mouse support in X !
> >     By making the statement you made above, you are suggesting that.  
> 
> No, I don't.  I'm saying that when I install a kernel my mouse doesn't
> quit !  That is it.  That is all the sentence says. 
> 
> > Now, if you said, 'when I install a new gmp rpm, my mouse doesn't quit 
> > working', that would make a much better argument.  
> 
> No it wouldn't.  The typical user doesn't know anything about a mouse
> driver.  Doesn't need to.  Shouldn't have to.  It is a reasonable
> expectation that nothing quits when a new kernel is installed !
> 
> > The kernel has 
> > nothing to do with the mouse, don't compare apples and oranges.  You 
> > will lose that battle.
> 
> Users shouldn't have to know if the kernel has anything to do with the
> mouse or not.  Just that the mouse shouldn't quit when they change
> kernels !  Get it ?
> 
> >     The issue here is that nvidia relies (heavily) on the kernel and 
> > thus ties into several aspects of it. 
> 
> So do other pieces of hardware.
> 
> >  Under STABLE circumstances, this 
> > works fine (as many have already told you.) 
> 
> Ummm... sorry, but it doesn't.
> 
> First of all, thanks once again for introducing the red herring concept
> of me running a test kernel.  If you keep repeating a red herring,
> sooner or later some people might get confused, but not really.     
> 
> If you read my original post, you'll note that I had problems building a
> driver for kernel 2798.  As far as I know that kernel is considered
> stable.  After all, it is running on most fc6 boxes.
> 
> And the fact that the build failed is also irrelevant. 
> 
> THE RELEVANT POINT IN THIS WHOLE DISCUSSION IS THAT USERS HAVE TO
> *BUILD* A DRIVER IN ORDER TO RUN THE NVIDIA HARDWARE, unless they can
> live with what the non proprietary driver does.  (Caps for emphasis, not
> shouting !)   
> 
You also obviously are overlooking (intentionally or otherwise) the
comment about the i586 kernel install with the i386 arch on fc6. This is
a bug that has been beat to death on this list.  That simple bug fix
would have prevented your compile/install of the nvidia driver and would
have allowed the yum install from livna to work.

No one I know has to *BUILD* an nvidia driver for use with any
*released* kernel for FC6.  A simple yum install takes care of that.


> >  But once again, you fail to 
> > comprehend that.  You want to run test kernels, that's fine.  But don't 
> > expect everything to work, otherwise it wouldn't be a test kernel.
> 
> This has NOTHING to do with being a test kernel.  Are you dense ?  The
> nvidia driver has to be built for EVERY kernel and for me the failure
> rate on that build is probably 50%.
> 
> >   The 
> > NTFS module also ties in to the kernel, and when there are kernel 
> > updates, I have to wait a day or two to actually install the kernel 
> > because the NTFS module hasn't been applied to the new one yet.  
> 
> Funny, I run ntfs on our server and I don't know a darn thing about how
> it ties into the kernel !  I run yum update on the server, it does its
> thing and I'm done.  ntfs has never failed to run when I've rebooted.
> That is the way software is supposed to work.
> 
> > But 
> > that's just it, I WAIT FOR IT because I know it makes absolutely no 
> > sense in running the new kernel while not having the updated drivers, 
> > and then come bitch and moan that things don't work.  Get that into your 
> > mind please: everything will, at some point or another, lack behind a 
> > kernel update. 
> 
> Funny, but the only thing that lags behind a kernel update for me is
> nvidia, now that I run bcm43xx instead of ndiswrapper. 
> 
> >  It's YOUR responsibility to make sure you have the 
> > correct drivers, modules, and/or patches BEFORE you update your kernel.  
> 
> Well, funny thing about that, with nvida YOU CAN'T !  At this point I
> would like to know if you have ever built an Nvidia driver ?
> 
> Here is the thing... as far as I know, one can only build an Nvidia
> driver for the kernel that they are running.  Maybe the wizards know a
> way around this, but, like I said before, I have a life outside of
> Linux !  So what happens is you boot with the Nvidia driver and then you
> build it and that is when you find out if it works or not.
> 
> > Whether the nvidia folks decide to take 24 hours or 24 days to release 
> > an update, that's THEIR call, and they will have a reason to do that.  
> 
> And to hell with the Linux folks and what they need.  Because here is
> the thing... I don't have to wait 24 hours or 24 days for the ntfs
> driver or the mouse driver or any of that.  It just seems to be there
> when the kernel is ready.  I have yet to update a kernel and lose use of
> ntfs or my mouse !
> 
> > How many times haven't you heard Microsoft delaying a critical update, 
> > while other third party companies have already released theirs?  They 
> > have a reason to, whether it's for more testing or because the guy 
> > responsible is taking a long piss.
> 
> See, now open source software is different for all the other drivers
> other than those from nvidia.  That is my point !  The source is there
> and when the kernel gets built, so does the latest driver with all the
> recent updates in it.  Its a beautiful system !  Kudos to Linus and the
> boys on a job very, very well done.  I won't say what I think of nvidia
> being the exception to this system !
> 
> >   GET OVER IT and deal with the fact 
> > that YOU, and only YOU made the choice to run test kernels on your 
> > hardware.  No one told you that you must.
> 
> Once again this has NOTHING to do with running test kernels !  If I
> change kernels right now, to one I have run before, guess what ?  I have
> to build another Nvidia driver !  Doesn't matter if the kernel is a bit
> torrent from www.kernel.org or 2.4.x !  Livna *might* have a driver
> built for it, but then again, they might not.  Funny, I don't have to go
> to my mouse manufacturers and download an install script for my mouse ! 
> 
> >     Once again, if you want to run test kernels, DO NOT EXPECT 
> > EVERYTHING TO WORK WITH THEM.  It's the whole nature of being a test 
> > kernel (or any other package for that matter.)  
> 
> Once again, nothing to do with the fact its a test kernel !
> 
> > It's for people to find 
> > the problems and report them, and not for you to come bitching and 
> > moaning because you lost some precious 60 minutes of your life.  You 
> > know what, I couldn't care less how much time you lost. 
> 
> I didn't expect you to care about how much time I lost, I expected you
> to realize that there is some potential to improve Linux in this regard
> and focus on that.
> 
> -- 
> Kim Lux,  Diesel Research Inc.
> 
> 


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