On Wednesday 26 May 2010, Máirín Duffy wrote: >On Wed, 2010-05-26 at 16:09 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote: >> On Wed, 26 May 2010 14:56:31 -0400 >> >> Máirín Duffy wrote: >> > There were multiple blog posts on the redesign posted to Planet Fedora >> > [1] (and syndicated to many other Linux & open source-related blog >> > planets) over a period of several months, as well as mentioned on >> > Fedora Weekly News [2], discussed on the Fedora websites mailing list, >> > logistics mailing list, and design mailing list. >> >> But not, of course, on the fedora users list I guess, the list where >> the folks who are actually going to use this stuff hang out. > >Unfortunately, mailing lists aren't the best communication medium for >sharing designs and getting feedback on them. It's pretty much a >nightmare dealing with flames and trying to sift through hundreds of >mails to get the few nuggets of useful feedback typically procured >through a mailing list-based feedback process. > >I do think it would be hard to argue announcing and actively discussing >the design on three separate Fedora mailing lists was not sufficient >enough mailing list exposure! > OTOH, one must be subscribed to said lists in order to participate. Those of us who have varied interests are generally subscribed to more mailing lists than we can handle by making timely, on topic and expert responses to the list we are on. To demand that we subscribe to YAML just to participate in your often petty squabbles over the color themes etc, is to be blunt, asking for way too much. My present folder count in kmail is 49, more than screen height We assume there are intelligent people doing this, and at times methinks we assume too much. So when you go live with a brand new page that seems poorly organized, there really should have been links to it made available on this list, say 2 weeks prior, so we could at least pull a screen shot. and fuss if it really is that bad. Me, I googled for it, and hit the right page on the first try, but that was only because someone already suggested that was it. >> The Vogons had their plans for the destruction of Earth on file in the >> galactic office on Alpha-Centauri too :-). > >I think you can agree with me that comparison is unfair as the designs >were actively discussed across many public forums widely known to and >read by Fedora contributors, as I already outlined for you. Please be >reasonable. But not the users forum/mailing list, so you are carrying this on in a relative vacuum in terms of the number of 'users' you are using. IMO, that is no ones fault but your own... >> > I appreciate your effort in trying to participate, but I hope you can >> > see how your feedback would easily be interpreted as non-constructive >> > and inflammatory. Especially when I gave you an example link to where >> > the design was posted last fall, and you reply that you wouldn't have >> > bothered to look at it. It makes it seem as if you are not really >> > interested in helping, only complaining. >> >> If Ford gave me an opportunity to look at their plans for redesigned >> controls in their new line of cars, I wouldn't bother to look at that >> either because I wouldn't think they would be idiotic enough to remove >> the brake pedal since, after all, the car will stop anyway when it >> hits something :-). > >As I already explained clearly: torrents, jigdo, and mirrors are not >required to download and enjoy Fedora. These alternative and in some >cases niche methods for downloading Fedora are not essential for >actually obtaining Fedora. Furthermore, these methods have not been >taken away, they have simply been de-listed from the main download >pages. They still exist, and the folks who desire those alternative >methods I should hope, being smart enough to understand how to install >and run a torrent client, are also completely capable of Googling the >extremely obvious links (e.g., torrent.fedoraproject.org) should they >not already be aware of them. > >Your analogy is completely insufficient and ill-fitting for this >scenario. A more accurate analogy to Ford removing the brakes from a car >design would be Fedora removing the installer from the distro. So is yours, from the users viewpoint. Or is that not understandable? >> Complaining after the fact is the only possible response available >> when something you couldn't imagine happening in your wildest dreams >> is foisted on you. You can't spend 24 hours a day trying to guess >> what cliques of developers are off planning the next disaster so >> you can attempt to constructively participate ahead of time and >> head them off. > >Make a decision - contribute, or don't contribute. If you're going to >contribute, then follow the design and development of the distro. If >you're not going to contribute, don't be rude to those who did. No one >is asking you to guess, I am just trying to let you know that you could >have participated if you really cared to and pointed out your concern >much earlier. It's all done out in the open! No it isn't. When you restrict such discussions to a specialized mailing list only, you are shooting yourself in the foot. If you are low on ammo, let me know what caliber you need and I'll check my supplies. Email agents all have pretty decent sorting abilities if you would like to sort by subject. >I can't spend 24 hours a day trying to guess what users are going to >think of the designs I create to help improve things for them, but I can >most certainly post those designs to multiple mailing lists, blogs, and >other public community discussions forums to gather as much feedback as >I can from them. And I do. > >~m > -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) You got to be very careful if you don't know where you're going, because you might not get there. -- Yogi Berra -- users mailing list users@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
