2008/8/10 Russell Miller <duskglow@xxxxxxxxx>: > > > On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 1:46 PM, Arthur Pemberton <pemboa@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> >> >> >> A newbie would likely either stick with the OSS drivers, (assuming >> they get at least 1024x768) or they would Google it, or they would >> give up. > > That last option is to me what's inexcusable. We (and by "we" I mean the > community) shouldn't be marketing things to newbies so that they attempt to > install it, spend a week trying to get something working, then give up and > install windows again, with a permanent bad taste in their mouth regarding > linux. Say what you want about Gentoo - at least it makes no pretenses. >> >> Also, I personally think that Fedora should have an explicit warning >> against use by computer newbies (ie. people not interested in fiddling >> with their install at all) -- this is a separate topic, but I fee that >> Fedora's FOSS idealism (which I like) currently stands in the way of >> ease of use due to he behavior of most hardware manufactures. > > But then we have stuff like NetworkManager, which seems to be in place > solely to make Fedora easier to use by newbies - and in the process screwing > people who actually *do* know what they're doing and just having stuff like > that get in the way. > > Why is it so difficult to turn pulseaudio off? Why did NetworkManager keep > restarting itself after I shut it down - even to the point of *shutting off > the services*? Why was SElinux introduced in such a halfassed way that my > default behavior on any new fedora install was to shut it off? Why was KDE > 4 introduced when it was not ready for primetime? (I really dislike it, I > would have rather stuck with 3.5 and had 4.0 as an option - it wouldn't have > been all that much more difficult to do a side by side and a way to select > between them. And I was a KDE developer!) Are you aware of Fedora Project's objectives [1]? The first core principle is that the project is about the rapid progress of Free, Open Source software and content. That includes adopting new software early and assisting in its development. All the problematic software you mentioned are great examples of this. They are or were new and maybe had some problems. They also introduced some great functinonality that didn't exist in earlier solutions. I have found that Fedora rarely provides software that is completely unusable, but at times there are some small regressions. When the community uses the software, it gradually gains a better understanding of the new software, its advantages and its limitations. The problems may frustrate some users, but I am sure that many would feel at least equally frustrated if Pulseaudio or NetworkManager were taken from them, for example. Software is seldom perfect, so there will always be some who would rather keep using the old solution, because it happens to suit their needs better and it's what they are used to. Why the old solution isn't always easily available? I think it isn't usually by design, but often due to lack of manpower and the desire to rapidly embrace new technology. Fedora's priorities are with the progressive development, and sometimes old technologies are dropped entirely to make room and developers available for new ones. Fedora is for a user who is interested in rapid progress or free software. It is always in a state of change, even between the stable versions. If you explicitly want a system that rarely changes, some other distribution might suit you a lot better than Fedora. I think Fedora's current role in the free software community is a very important one. It may not always be the easiest to use and keep using due to the continuous change and the desire to strongly focus on free software, but it is constantly exploring the limits of what can be achieved with free software. Sometimes a new design may require further use to get polished better, but for some users this is exactly why they choose Fedora. > It seems like I'm being hard on you guys. OK, I am. But it's just because > I see what Fedora was and could still be, and instead I'm sitting here > fighting with it because it's done in such an unpolished and schizophrenic > manner. References: 1: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives -- Joonas Sarajärvi muepsj@xxxxxxxxx -- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@xxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
