Rodolfo J. Paiz wrote:
Although I've been dabbling with Linux for a couple of years, I consider myself a newbie. So perhaps my experience, and current profound frustrations, will help you figure out what will work for people like me. I don't mind reading HOWTO's, FAQ's, manuals and lists. I spend a huge amount of time doing that. Part of my problem is that, at the same time I'm learning about Linux, I'm also learning about packet sniffing, DNS, TCP, Windows Networking, etc. It's impossible, I'm finding, to do anything with Linux without being deeply knowledgeable about all things networking and TCP/IP.At 11:52 AM 7/7/2004, Rick Stevens wrote:
IMHO, a "fedora-install-list" or "fedora-newbies" list would be a good thing--a place for newbies to gather with a much more limited archive for searching. Often a newbie doesn't even know what to look for in the first place. Cutting down on the more advanced subjects might make it easier for them.
Unfortunately, this has been proposed and thought of previously. The problems with it are segmentation of audience, so that there are also fewer people helping the newbies, and less reason for the experts to hang out since little or nothing is discussed in which they have any interest. Yes, some will deliberately hang out just to provide free tech support, but the numbers and volume get reduced. The help vehicle is thus less effective.
Besides, anyone who's either clueless enough or rude enough not to give a damn about the list footer, monthly reminder, list notifications, archives, FAQ's, online docs, in-system docs, and every other resource available out there, is also bloody well unlikely to *find* let alone join a newbies-only list.
Good idea, not practical in execution.
Cheers,
I lurk this list a lot, watching for threads that pertain to things I'm currently buggering my head against. I see a willingness to help people like me, but I also notice a real lack of patience with us. Too often, I will see a response to a question which would answer the question if only I could understand the answer. The quantity of utilities, tied with the arcane command lines and switches that are available, makes understanding the remedy as difficult as understanding the problem. And yet, so often, a followup confessing ignorance seems to be met with a fairly short "go read the manual." Perhaps I'm overly sensitive to such things, but I find I hesitate to ask for help. I'm also aware of the other side of the coin, which is that this list can't be tech support. It's just a difficulty I point up.
It would help me if there were an alphabetized list of common common actions with brief explanations of what command, switch and argument to use. For example, to get a list of running processes, enter "ps -aux | more." I've been to the man page for "ps" and I wouldn't know from reading it that that's what I have to do to get the result I want. I've read man page after man page and more often than not find them inscrutable, because the explanation of what the switch does doesn't make sense to me. I still don't know how to kill a running process using its name. I figured it out by number, (and it took me 8 hours to do that) and that's what I do. Am I stupid? Maybe. I'd like to hope not.
At one point, I tried to search the archives of this list, looking for a thread I'd seen in the month of June. I did a search and turned up nothing. My only option was to go through the entire month's archives until I found it. I copied the thread from one of the messages and pasted it into the search field. It still turned up nothing. So searching the archives is a very unproductive activity for me if I'm trying to find something in particular. Or maybe I'm just not using it right.
I'm sure there's a way to make all of this stuff work for me. I'm sure it all works if I just put the right spin on an argument or a switch, or get a big enough picture that I can know more instinctively where to look and what to look for. I'm getting better, and I'm grateful for this list. But there is a lack of "big picture" resources to let someone like me get a toehold.
If a list of good, big picture resources were part of the monthly mailing, I'd use it. I save the monthly mailing so I have a resource to go to on how to use the list. If it contained big picture resources, it would be that much more valuable. You could, legitimately, refer someone to it if you felt their question could be answered by it.
It would help if there were a way to archive the list by general topic, e.g., firewall, NAT, DNS, Samba. I know that searching is supposed to allow me to do that, but, as I said, it hasn't worked for me.
Perhaps you could keep a tally of how many times a particular question is asked and answered, and, after so many times, it goes on a FAQ. You could then, in response to a question, cite the FAQ and item number so someone could go straight there. Then, if they come back and say, " I read item 6 on the FAQ and I still don't get it," you would at least know that they gave it a try first.
I hope this helps.
Dave Maier
