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It would appear that on Jul 7, David Maier did say:
> Although I've been dabbling with Linux for a couple of years, I consider
> myself a newbie. So perhaps my experience, and current profound
> frustrations, will help you figure out what will work for people like me. I
> don't mind reading HOWTO's, FAQ's, manuals and lists. I spend a huge amount
> of time doing that. Part of my problem is that, at the same time I'm learning
> about Linux, I'm also learning about packet sniffing, DNS, TCP, Windows
> Networking, etc. It's impossible, I'm finding, to do anything with Linux
> without being deeply knowledgeable about all things networking and TCP/IP.
> I lurk this list a lot, watching for threads that pertain to things I'm
> currently buggering my head against. I see a willingness to help people like
> me, but I also notice a real lack of patience with us. Too often, I will see
> a response to a question which would answer the question if only I could
> understand the answer. The quantity of utilities, tied with the arcane
> command lines and switches that are available, makes understanding the remedy
> as difficult as understanding the problem. And yet, so often, a followup
> confessing ignorance seems to be met with a fairly short "go read the manual."
> Perhaps I'm overly sensitive to such things, but I find I hesitate to ask for
> help. I'm also aware of the other side of the coin, which is that this list
> can't be tech support. It's just a difficulty I point up.
Personally I love it when an answer to a question includes all those
wonderful even if "arcane" command line solutions as IF I can get those
to work, I can put them in a script which can automate the solution, and
provide a handy place to look for examples of what I've made work at
least once before I forgot something...
But I also like it much better when the explanation helps me understand
what said command is doing for me.
> It would help me if there were an alphabetized list of common common actions
> with brief explanations of what command, switch and argument to use. For
> example, to get a list of running processes, enter "ps -aux | more." I've
> been to the man page for "ps" and I wouldn't know from reading it that that's
> what I have to do to get the result I want. I've read man page after man page
> and more often than not find them inscrutable, because the explanation of what
> the switch does doesn't make sense to me. I still don't know how to kill a
> running process using its name. I figured it out by number, (and it took me 8
> hours to do that) and that's what I do. Am I stupid? Maybe. I'd like to
> hope not.
I too certainly hope not, because: if having a hard time understanding the
manual(s) makes one stupid, then I'm a lost cause! It always seams to me
that very few of the manuals offer much in the way of real every day use
examples that can make users like me (and perhaps you?) understand the
the command (or at least how to use it) much better than all the highly
technical text. I'd like to mention that in many cases there is more
complete information to be had by typing "info {command}" than there is
to be found by "man {command}" But it could still use more novice level
examples.
Incidentally the only way I know to kill a process by name (which only
sometimes works) isn't "kill" it's "killall"
example:
$ killall pine
If I opened another konsole and typed that right now, I'd be so ticked
at myself it wouldn't be funny <grin>
And I'd like to see that list you speak of too. If you ever find it
please let me know where.
> At one point, I tried to search the archives of this list, looking for a
> thread I'd seen in the month of June. I did a search and turned up nothing.
> My only option was to go through the entire month's archives until I found it.
> I copied the thread from one of the messages and pasted it into the search
> field. It still turned up nothing. So searching the archives is a very
> unproductive activity for me if I'm trying to find something in particular.
> Or maybe I'm just not using it right.
Actually I think the official RedHat archives search isn't worth a month
old M$ IE patch...
I get much better results at MARC, This is copied from my firefox
bookmark for it:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=fedora-list&r=1&w=2
> I'm sure there's a way to make all of this stuff work for me. I'm sure it all
> works if I just put the right spin on an argument or a switch, or get a big
> enough picture that I can know more instinctively where to look and what to
> look for. I'm getting better, and I'm grateful for this list. But there is a
> lack of "big picture" resources to let someone like me get a toehold.
Don't give up! While that big picture resource might never get here, If
you keep at it you will get that toehold.
> If a list of good, big picture resources were part of the monthly mailing, I'd
> use it. I save the monthly mailing so I have a resource to go to on how to
> use the list. If it contained big picture resources, it would be that much
> more valuable. You could, legitimately, refer someone to it if you felt their
> question could be answered by it.
I'd like to see that too.
> It would help if there were a way to archive the list by general topic, e.g.,
> firewall, NAT, DNS, Samba. I know that searching is supposed to allow me to do
> that, but, as I said, it hasn't worked for me.
Again try searching on MARC
> Perhaps you could keep a tally of how many times a particular question is
> asked and answered, and, after so many times, it goes on a FAQ. You could
> then, in response to a question, cite the FAQ and item number so someone could
> go straight there. Then, if they come back and say, " I read item 6 on the
> FAQ and I still don't get it," you would at least know that they gave it a try
> first.
Sounds reasonable to me.
I don't think the FAQ, and/or the updated monthly reminder, and/or
putting links to them in the mailing list data attached to every list
message/digest would make much impact on the 1st time newbies. But if
all of this was done, it might help with those who really do want a clue.
If even one out of ten clueless questions were avoided, it would be a
victory for the list, wouldn't it?
- --
| --- ___
| <0> <-> Joe (theWordy) Philbrook
| ^ J(tWdy)P
| ~\___/~ <<jtwdyp@xxxxxxxx>>
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