Re: Attempted summary of "RT patch acceptance" thread

["Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@us.ibm.com>]

On Fri, Jun 10, 2005 at 07:37:28PM +0200, Andrea Arcangeli wrote:
> Hello Paul,
> 
> kudos for your very nice RT documents (as usual ;)

Thank you, glad you liked it!

> On Fri, Jun 10, 2005 at 08:47:46AM -0700, Paul E. McKenney wrote:
> > Good point -- I certainly need to add a disclaimer to the effect that
> > common hardware (such as VGA, last I checked some months ago) can
> 
> > a.	Quality of service: soft realtime, with timeframe of 100s of
> > 	microseconds for task scheduling and interrupt handling, but
> > 	-only- for very carefully restricted hardware configurations
> > 	that exclude problematic devices and drivers (such as VGA)
> > 	that can cause latency bumps of tens or even hundreds of
> > 	milliseconds (-not- microseconds).  Furthermore, the software
> > 	configuration of such systems must be carefully controlled,
> > 	for example, doing a "kill -1" traverses the entire task list
> > 	with tasklist_lock held (see kill_something_info()), which might
> > 	result in disappointing latencies in systems with very large
> > 	numbers of tasks.  System services providing I/O, networking,
> > 	task creation, and VM manipulation can take much longer.  A very
> > 	small performance penalty is exacted, since spinlocks and RCU
> > 	must suppress preemption.
> > 
> > Does this help, or are there other CONFIG_PREEMPT latency issues that
> > need to be called out?
> 
> You don't need to add it to the document, but as a further pratical
> example of troublesome hardware besides VGA (could be a software issue
> and not hardware issue though) I'd like to make the example of the irq
> handler of the uhci usb1.1 controller that takes up to 8msec on a 1ghz
> atlhon UP system, and there's nothing that PREEMPT can do about it since
> it's an hard-irq. This latency keeps triggering a few times per second
> on my firewall for the last few years.

After reading the ensuing thread, I am not sure what example to use!
Maybe I should just pick random examples and see if they tend to get
fixed?  ;-)

> preempt-RT _can_ do something about it but only _if_ people hacks the
> drivers properly and makes sure to call local_irq_save_nort instead of
> local_irq_save and other explicit changes like that, things that if
> missing are noticeable only during measurements with preempt-RT config
> option enabled (hence the metal-hard classification of preempt-RT and
> not ruby-hard definition).
> 
> See the tg3 updates required to be safe with preempt-RT without breaking
> hard-RT as a clear example of how preempt-RT is weak:
> 
> --- linux/drivers/net/tg3.c.orig
> +++ linux/drivers/net/tg3.c
> @@ -3229,9 +3229,9 @@ static int tg3_start_xmit(struct sk_buff
>          * So we really do need to disable interrupts when taking
>          * tx_lock here.
>          */
> -       local_irq_save(flags);
> +       local_irq_save_nort(flags);
>         if (!spin_trylock(&tp->tx_lock)) { 
> -               local_irq_restore(flags);
> +               local_irq_restore_nort(flags);
>                 return NETDEV_TX_LOCKED; 
>         } 
>  
> There's no apparent reason why all those changes should be required to
> get hard-RT.
> 
> Both RTAI and rtlinux _don't_ require to change all those drivers to get
> the guarantee that the kernel will get out of the way within a certain
> nanoseconds deadline interval.
> 
> Furthermore with the scheduler, mutex and context switch code into the
> equation, it gets more and more difficult to calculate with math the max
> latency that preempt-RT will provide, while it's almost trivial to do
> that with RTAI/rtlinux given only the nanokernel code runs before the
> hard-RT code is invoked and there are not many paths to test, so one has
> to disable the cache and just measure the few possible nanokenrel paths.
> (as usual when speaking about hard-RT I've robots in mind, and not audio
> code that will call into the alsa ioctls)
> 
> This below is the kind of stuff where I wouldn't even dream to replace
> a ruby-hard rtlinux/RTAI with a weaker metal-hard and possibly
> underperformant (cause scheduling hard-irq in userland and scheduling
> instead of spinning isn't going to be cheap in smp) preempt-RT solution:
> 
> http://linuxdevices.com/articles/AT7871136191.html
> 
> In the above RTAI should have made it as well as rtlinux of course.

As long as the nested-OS or migration-between-OSes approaches prevents
Linux from disabling interrupts, then interrupts and preemption-disabling
are not a problem.  As noted later in this thread, there is still the
possibility of hardware stalls, which seems to affect all the approaches,
with the possible exception of migration-within-OS between CPUs that
don't share the offending hardware.  Maybe a dual AMD?

						Thanx, Paul
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