On 12/14/2010 12:45 PM, les wrote: > On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 09:50 -0700, Patrick Kobly wrote: >> A first programming language should avoid concepts like: >> * Pointers (at least in the C conception of them, breaking the >> typing system) >> <SNIP> > I see a lot of complaints about pointers in all these messages, telling > this novice to avoid them. But the fact is that all languages rely on > pointers. Even the beloved scripting languages so many tout, cannot > exist without pointers. Of course this is true. <snip> > The beloved object oriented folks have pointers built in, that are used > to access the procedures that affect the objects. The objects are in > fact structures, which are created in blocks and again pointers are used > to reference that information. When you use an array, that is an > indexed offset from a pointer. As is this. > Someone said pointers break the typing. That is not true, if you do not > break pointer typing to begin with. That is a pointer can be typed, and > moreover someone who uses an integer for a pointer is voiding type > control in his program. And moreover, somebody who uses the standard libraries in C needs to void type control in his program in this manner. A learning programmer with entry level skills does not have the knowledge to understand when this is appropriate and when it is not (and is potentially dangerous). > No knowing pointers means not having any clue to how the underlying > structure works and leads to weak programming. And trying to understand the concepts of indirection at a point when one does not have a grip on concepts such as boolean logic, flow control and variable assignment / use causes a muddied understanding of pointers, what they are and how they work. This muddied thinking at this critical conceptual jump is extremely difficult to remedy with students. > I strongly encourage every beginning programmer to learn pointers, > pointer usage and pointer math to understand some of the mechanisms that > make programs break. I strongly encourage beginning programmers to learn boolean logic, flow control, procedure and function calls, variable assignment / reference, and the distinction between formal and actual parameters. And then I strongly encourage them to extend this knowledge by understanding pointer indirection and recursion. > A programmer who doesn't understand the strengths > and weaknesses of pointers is like a plumber who doesn't know how pipes > work and what makes a manifold. And the plumber presumably learns how to work with individual pipes before he learns how to work with a manifold. Surely a learning plumber does not get thrown into new construction work on a sky-rise without supervision to start. > He can hack around, but he cannot > diagnose when plumbing makes noises, doesn't flow correctly or even > backflows. > > That is my opinion. Maybe I am out to lunch, but has anyone seen any > language that didn't access memory? Most assuredly not. But learning with languages that assist in developing a conceptual model for programming and then extend to a fuller model appeals to brand new programmers. PK -- users mailing list users@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
