On 9/26/07, Ric Moore <wayward4now@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > On Mon, 2007-09-24 at 18:06 -0400, David Boles wrote: > > on 9/24/2007 5:28 PM, Mike McCarty wrote: > > > David Boles wrote: > > >> on 9/21/2007 5:56 PM, Mike McCarty wrote: > > >> > > >> I'm sorry list but I just can't resist this. ;-) > > >> > > >> This is something my parents said to me when I was a know-it-all teen. > > >> > > >> We will miss you when you leave (my name was here) Mike. Write when you > > >> find work. ;-) > > > > > > I don't expect that any here will miss me. > > > Also, I don't particularly care. > > I bet you actually would. <grins> I'd miss you for being so cantankerous > and as a Devil's Advocate! <chuckles> > > > Actually I was just trying to *****-slap you awake. > > That's kinda "aggressive", don't you think? Does anyone -have- to live > up to our expectations? Myself, ...I think not. > > > There have been some > > really experienced, knowledgeable, and important Linux people trying to > > politely explain SELinux to you, both how and why, for several days. > > > > And there you stand with your fingers in your ears and loudly saying > > *la-la-la* I'm not listening!! > > ... it might be better to preface that statement with "From my > perception..." as that is what it is and not necessarily the case from > his point of view. > > > From what I have read you have the choice of using Fedora and disabling > > SELinux. Or not using Fedora. Period. And I do not see Fedora making you a > > special 'Mike' DVD to install without SELinux. > > That has never been his point. I agree that it would be better for me, > as a user with little to no actual use for SELinux, to be able to remove > it. Okay. Let's just say the answer to that is no. > Beagle comes to mind. And it does seem to waste a tick or two, even > completely turned off, from what I'm reading. I'm a speed freak, and > there are times when my system feels no faster than my old 486 DX/2 66 > with 32 megs of memory did, running Caldera. These are my perceptions > and opinions. Remember, the "Geek Manifesto" is the pursuit of the > "Right Thing"... and that usually means a spirited intellectual debate. Beagle was a waste of time AND it was easily removable. > Plenty of Hell was raised about Beagle to the point it seems to have > been ditched. It just didn't happen to be the "Right Thing". Most of the > people discussing SELinux were the very same ones who discussed the cons > of Beagle. So, it could happen that SELinux could be "Not Installed" as > an option at install time, if a modified kernel was available to be > installed, at that point. If Fedora ditches SELinux and this trickles down to CentOS/RHEL, I would stop using them. > And, if the apps could run with or without it, > if that was a part of the modifications that are being made anyway. I'm > not a coder, but it would seem that if an app can be modified to rely on > SELinux, at the same time another hook could be included to run without > it existing on the system at all. Apps can run without SELinux, you should have understood that by now. > It merely becomes a decision to do so. > I think that omission is core to the debate... that Fedora cannot run > without it and/or months of hand editing a pile of source-code to make > it so. Where are you getting this information? I have never seen what you're saying here to be true. > We do have two camps of users here: > > 1.) Those that hail back to the Bob Young days, who have a historical > and personal stake in RedHat and it's success. In those days, the > individual users opinions counted and everyone was evangelical over > spreading the news about a potential "Windows Killer". The price was > relatively cheap for the box set to Joe <aka Lunch> Bucket. Many became > serious admins later on. Then SOMEBODY kicked users to the curb. IMHO, > that was not a good decision to make. Listen, if you're stil bitching about that, you need to get help. I was using Redhat before that happened, just like many others. > 2.) Folks that are happy and excited to be in the fold of the new > paradigm of "Fedora" and be part of the test-bed to benefit RH > commercial users through endless beta-testing ...which is what it is > from my viewpoint and from reading the manifesto explaining the base > goals of the "Fedora Project". Okay sir. > Older farts like me would like to see it nudged back towards the old > experience of a more-stable user version of RH, as that is where we > "grew-up". So, this "movement" to removing something as pervasive as > SELinux is how it was back when users could help define the very nature > of the distro and that was respected. Bob Young was all about the > end-user. I've met him on many occasions, especially after he hired me > in 1999. So why don't you use CentOS instead of Fedora? > > It's been real. And it's been fun. But it ain't been real fun. > > But, it has been interesting, no? No. Purely depressing at this point. [ snip ] > I really miss the old RH days. I think others do too, and that might be > some old baggage that could be discarded after considerations, and just > move on. One way or the the other. It's a difficult decision to make > though. If I pound on Rahul, it's only because I miss the old days. So, > I apologize for that. Ric Ok -- Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine ( www.pembo13.com )
