On Tue, 2007-02-06 at 11:05 +0200, Gilboa Davara wrote: > On Tue, 2007-02-06 at 03:35 -0500, Ric Moore wrote: > > On Mon, 2007-02-05 at 13:15 +0200, Gilboa Davara wrote: > > > > > > Forgive my bluntness, but if you are not looking to start a rant thread, > > > what exactly -are- you trying to achieve? > > > > He's airing how he feels, is this not allowed? > > In my view, this is a gray area. > E.g. (Bad example, I know), Freedom of speech is almost absolute - but > you are not allowed to shout fire in a crowded theater. > > > > > > You refuse to report the bugs in an organize fashion. > > > > When it comes to non-supported issues, he can't. > > Non-supported issues? > > > > > > You mix software and hardware problems. > > > > Trouble shooting with a shotgun, it happens and is part of a very severe > > learning curve to use linux of any flavor. I've asked so many ignorant > > questions for years, that I had quite a few answers stored up. Got a job > > at RedHat with out any formal training at all. I learned at the suffrage > > of others to whom I will be eternally grateful. I'm sure you did as > > well. So, we all suffer a little to pay back by paying forward. > > I may be wrong (and God knows I'm human), but parts of his posts (up the > thread) seemed to suggest that: > A. Fedora (as a project) owes him something. > B. We (as in the community) owe him something. > C. We have all failed him. > > While C may nor may not be valid, A and B has no business being aired in > a -community- driven project. > > > > > > You seem to complain bout missing support for patent encumbered media > > > types - ignoring the fact that these doesn't having nothing to do with > > > Fedora to begin with. > > > > So does everyone else on this list, but you're zeroing in on him. Give > > JoAnne or Anne a hard time and see what happens. I'd pay good money to > > see that one. :) > > While the initial post was mildly annoying (let alone that flame-baiting > title), the subsequent ones were damn near impossible to ignore. > Again, my question remains... what exactly was the purpose of this > thread? Rent? Getting help? Starting a flame war? > > > > > > As I see it, you are either part of the problem or part of the problem > > > or part of the solution. > > > As you refuse to help (E.g. by reporting bugs, etc) , you are part of > > > the problem. > > > > You said "refuse", he never -refused- to do that. Bugzilla is a pain to > > use for a newbie and even a flatworm turns from pain if you light a > > match next to it. > > Has he offered any another solution - beside venting? > > > So, more often than not, I'll question my own problem > > to the list to air it, to make sure I'm not putting in a bugzilla report > > that might be my own ignorant fault and a waste of a developers time. We > > all hate to look stupid instead of just ignorant. Teamwork is not a bad > > thing, is it? > > No argument there. > > > > > I hate to see aggressive attacks, "blaming" and "shoulding" are > > considered aggressive, not assertive. "Name calling", "Labeling", "My > > Way or the Highway", "Failure of others to live up to my expectations", > > these are all common elements of criminal thinking (common thought > > patterns leading to an offense) and are best avoided by careful > > consideration and taking perspectives. > > Again, no argument there. > > > It's really sad to see someone whose "shoulding" covertly escalated to > > take on a darker form, and found himself standing in a chow line > > blinking and wondering just how the hell he got there. It's sad as Hell. > > And, the road to there is wide. We had one guy that just got out after > > doing 38 years for murdering his best friend for "Not doin' what I > > said." He would have been much better off had he understood that a > > simple "stop-switch" would have saved him that conviction 38 years ago. > > His one "should" got him that time. Imagine never knowing what an ATM > > card was for or how to use it. He's a really old man who has missed much > > now, all because someone else didn't live up to his expectations. > > Umm.... a bit OT. But OK. > > > > > So, this was on my mind while processing all the "shoulds" I'm reading > > on the Bugzilla issue. So, this is not pointed solely at you, Gilboa, > > but others as well. It's hard for me not to do it too, I am just as > > guilty. But I'm pointing out that it is considered not good nor healthy > > to do. Ric > > I think I lost your main argument - or you miss-understood my initial > post. It may be my abysmal English, though. My main point is that while FC is cutting / bleeding edge even for seasoned linux users, we as a community attract the newbies who are used to the "other world" and as we have learned from others, it becomes important to "teach" what we have learned and the ways of our "culture". You have undoubtably have had to endure the same thing in "The Real World". To teach is a whole other thing. The old Critique vs Criticism ideal of leading a student instead of driving him/her applies. Of course it's on the student to learn as well. <chuckles> I'm supposed to take my project to a Youth Center for Juvvies. Jeeeeez... they think they're setting me up to fail. Ah hell nah. Same stuff will apply, so I'm putting my money where my mouth is and steppin' into it. I make it fun, they'll learn, no doubt. So, the OP could apologize once he figures out the social norms here. I'll call him Brother then too. > Lets see if I can rewrite my post: > > A. Bugzilla is not an ideal solution. But sadly enough... > B. Nobody seem to have found a better solution. Feel free to suggest > one. > C. Report bugs, even if you they don't get solved. Why? > D. ...Archive!!! People with similar problems will search the Internet, > find your bug report, and might just add that missing piece of data that > will get your problem resolved. > E. Report the bug upstream! (And post a link in the Fedora BZ) > F. Once the problem gets resolved upstream - report it downstream in the > Fedora BZ! > G. Learn how to operate strace, gdb (ddd/etc). It'll help you supply > better information to the up/downstream maintainers. That is a long range goal for newbies, but important enough to make the effort to acquire those skills, I agree. > H. Think twice before you start ranting - it will only annoy the > up/downstream maintainer. Ha! I hear you especially on that issue. He'll learn that. ;) Ric -- ================================================ My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: "There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad. Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/ http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar http://www.wayward4now.net ================================================
