On Fri, 2006-03-10 at 14:13 -0600, john bray wrote: > i think i originally sent this from the wrong mail account, so it > likely got rejected for the list. if not, apologies for dual posting. > =============== > > On Fri, 2006-03-10 at 17:06 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > <snip> > > > > > The discussion that happened again was about implementing the > > "everything" installation feature as opposed to other interface > > improvements so instead of assuming anything, it would good to put in > > the effort where it would make much better sense. Bugzilla RFE's are > > specific and directed towards the relevant developers compared to > > discussions in the users list which is going to probably make no > > difference at all. > > i've been reading this discussion a bit. huge brawls like this tend > to be discussions which i avoid. that said, i feel a need to comment. > sorry about that. > > i think this is all about a symptom of a problem. not the problem > itself. > > i find this kind of statement pretty disappointing: > > > specific and directed towards the relevant developers compared to > > discussions in the users list which is going to probably make no > > difference at all. > > it seems to me that the problem here is that the whole thing took > fedora users by surprise. i have a feeling that there are far more of > us who use the all option than anyone thought. > > but, again, that's not the real problem, when you come down to it. > > we talk about fedora being a community release. but, it's not -- not really. > > the success or failure of most projects depends on whether they meet their > user's needs. lots of businesses have figured that out over the years. > and we (may *I*, a mere user say we?), here on the users-list comprise > at least a semi-reasonable sample of FC users. > > organizations of lots of types have learned to take the time to check with > their user base to see how it feels about lots of things. you can call it > about anything you want -- focus groups, opinion polls, online questionaires, > et. al. > > projects which succeed are those which stay in close touch with their > user base, clientele, customers -- whatever you want to call it. > > unfortunately, FC doesn't seem to be one of those projects. FC has the > strong feel of a project which is almost completely (note the almost) > controlled from the top. with little contact with the user base at the > bottom. > > clearly, there are some mechanisms for (mere) users to communicate to the > powers on high. they just don't work very well. > > i've been a developer for more than 25 years now. and i know how developers > feel about things. we always think we know best. and sometimes we do. > > but other times we don't -- but we still think we do. > > bugzilla is a great way to enter bugs -- presuming that anyone wanted to > know about them. or fix them. joining the developers list is a great way > to keep tabs on where development is going -- if you have huge amounts of time > to spare for it. > > but, they are NOT good ways of finding out how users feel about proposed changes. > presuming that anyone cares about those users' feelings. > > many failed companies have discovered that problem. > > successful organizations have learned that they must proactively ASK their > user base how they feel about proposed changes. and pay attention to what > they are told. saying something like "you should tell us" doesn't work. > > and then meet the users' needs as best as can be done. nobody can make everybody > happy all the time. and there are some issues that you can't make everyone > happy about, no matter what you do. and there are people who will never be > happy, no matter what you do. > > but, if you don't take the time to find out how they feel, > then there's not much chance. > ---- #1 - community release? community of developers is on fedora-developers list and you are welcome to join. #2 - you are assuming that they simply changed things just to change things and make it so you can't have the install go 'your way'. Apparently, they actually reformulated entire installation methodology and not everything has been put back is the way I understand it. Perhaps you would want the release of FC-5 pushed back until all of the options are put back into the installer mechanism. Since it's intended to be a 'timed' release, that isn't going to happen. #3 - the overall impression is that you are accusing Fedora developers of arrogantly being unconcerned with your desires. I would suggest that most of them have simply dropped off this list because of this type of attitude. It's not arrogance as much as it is failing to see the reasons why they need to justify their decisions to you when you could be participating in the decisions and the work efforts. I'm sure they would welcome more active participants. I know I have seen Rahul recruiting participants. #4 - bugzilla is not just for bugs but also for RFE's - request for enhancements. #5 - If Fedora isn't meeting your needs...why are you here? I think everyone should show a great amount of gratitude towards the developers but hey, that's my opinion. I think a thank you is probably more appropos than whining. Anyway, I certainly give the fedora developers credit for doing as much as they can do with the people, hardware and time that they have and I for one, am not going to sit in the cheap seats and criticize. If there is something that I don't like or isn't working for me...I use bugzilla (sometimes it gets fixed the way I want, sometimes, it doesn't). Craig
