i think i originally sent this from the wrong mail account, so it likely got rejected for the list. if not, apologies for dual posting. =============== On Fri, 2006-03-10 at 17:06 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: <snip> > > > The discussion that happened again was about implementing the > "everything" installation feature as opposed to other interface > improvements so instead of assuming anything, it would good to put in > the effort where it would make much better sense. Bugzilla RFE's are > specific and directed towards the relevant developers compared to > discussions in the users list which is going to probably make no > difference at all. i've been reading this discussion a bit. huge brawls like this tend to be discussions which i avoid. that said, i feel a need to comment. sorry about that. i think this is all about a symptom of a problem. not the problem itself. i find this kind of statement pretty disappointing: > specific and directed towards the relevant developers compared to > discussions in the users list which is going to probably make no > difference at all. it seems to me that the problem here is that the whole thing took fedora users by surprise. i have a feeling that there are far more of us who use the all option than anyone thought. but, again, that's not the real problem, when you come down to it. we talk about fedora being a community release. but, it's not -- not really. the success or failure of most projects depends on whether they meet their user's needs. lots of businesses have figured that out over the years. and we (may *I*, a mere user say we?), here on the users-list comprise at least a semi-reasonable sample of FC users. organizations of lots of types have learned to take the time to check with their user base to see how it feels about lots of things. you can call it about anything you want -- focus groups, opinion polls, online questionaires, et. al. projects which succeed are those which stay in close touch with their user base, clientele, customers -- whatever you want to call it. unfortunately, FC doesn't seem to be one of those projects. FC has the strong feel of a project which is almost completely (note the almost) controlled from the top. with little contact with the user base at the bottom. clearly, there are some mechanisms for (mere) users to communicate to the powers on high. they just don't work very well. i've been a developer for more than 25 years now. and i know how developers feel about things. we always think we know best. and sometimes we do. but other times we don't -- but we still think we do. bugzilla is a great way to enter bugs -- presuming that anyone wanted to know about them. or fix them. joining the developers list is a great way to keep tabs on where development is going -- if you have huge amounts of time to spare for it. but, they are NOT good ways of finding out how users feel about proposed changes. presuming that anyone cares about those users' feelings. many failed companies have discovered that problem. successful organizations have learned that they must proactively ASK their user base how they feel about proposed changes. and pay attention to what they are told. saying something like "you should tell us" doesn't work. and then meet the users' needs as best as can be done. nobody can make everybody happy all the time. and there are some issues that you can't make everyone happy about, no matter what you do. and there are people who will never be happy, no matter what you do. but, if you don't take the time to find out how they feel, then there's not much chance. my 2 cents. ymmv. john -- cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.
