On Tue, 2006-14-02 at 13:28 -0600, Mike McCarty wrote:
> Tim wrote:
> > Mike McCarty:
> >
> >>>>Please state what, exactly, is this "coerce" that MicroSoft has
> >>>>done.
> >
> >
> > Tim:
>
> [snip]
>
> > Mike McCarty:
> >
> >>Please point out where the coercion is. I still don't see any.
> >>More specifically, where are the "force, law, authority, or
> >>fear"?
> >
> >
> > What part of the big bully boy saying, "that if you want to do business
> > with us you have to do it our way," don't you see as intimidation?
>
> No, I don't. I see adults making adult decisions and making
> voluntary contracts. A contract is always a quid pro quo.
> "You do this for me, I do that for you." Coercion is "You
> do this, or I shoot you in the head." That's use of force.
> "You do this, or I'll put you into jail." That's use of law.
> "You do this, or I'll fire you". That's authority.
> "You do this, or I'll do horrible things to you, things you've
> never even thought of, things that will hurt." That's fear.
>
> I see no force, law, authority, or fear in what you describe.
Since :
"WordNet (r) 2.0"
coercion
n 1: the act of compelling by force of authority
2: using force to cause something; "though pressed into rugby
under compulsion I began to enjoy the game"; "they didn`t
have to use coercion" syn: compulsion
AND
"WordNet (r) 2.0"
authority
n 1: the power or right to give orders or make decisions; "he has
the authority to issue warrants"; "deputies are given
authorization to make arrests" syn: authorization,
authorisation, dominance, say-so
2: (usually plural) persons who exercise (administrative)
control over others; "the authorities have issued a
curfew"
3: an expert whose views are taken as definitive; "he is an
authority on corporate law"
4: freedom from doubt; belief in yourself and your abilities;
"his assurance in his superiority did not make him
popular"; "after that failure he lost his confidence";
"she spoke with authority" syn: assurance, self-assurance,
confidence, self-confidence, sureness
5: an administrative unit of government; "the Central
Intelligence Agency"; "the Census Bureau"; "Office of
Management and Budget"; "Tennessee Valley Authority" syn:
agency, federal agency, government agency, bureau,
office
6: official permission or approval; "authority for the program
was renewed several times" syn: authorization, authorisation,
sanction
7: an authoritative written work; "this book is the final
authority on the life of Milton"
AND
"WordNet (r) 2.0"
force
n 1: a unit that is part of some military service; "he sent
Caesar a force of six thousand men" syn: military unit,
military force, military group
2: one possessing or exercising power or influence or
authority; "the mysterious presence of an evil power";
"may the force be with you"; "the forces of evil" syn: power
3: (physics) the influence that produces a change in a physical
quantity; "force equals mass times acceleration"
4: group of people willing to obey orders; "a public force is
necessary to give security to the rights of citizens"
syn: personnel
5: a powerful effect or influence; "the force of his eloquence
easily persuaded them"
6: an act of aggression (as one against a person who resists);
"he may accomplish by craft in the long run what he cannot
do by force and violence in the short one" syn: violence
7: physical energy or intensity; "he hit with all the force he
could muster"; "it was destroyed by the strength of the
gale"; "a government has not the vitality and forcefulness
of a living man" syn: forcefulness, strength
8: a group of people having the power of effective action; "he
joined forces with a band of adventurers"
9: (of a law) having legal validity; "the law is still in
effect" syn: effect
v 1: to cause to do through pressure or necessity, by physical,
moral or intellectual means :"She forced him to take a
job in the city"; "He squeezed her for information"
syn: coerce, hale, squeeze, pressure
2: urge or force (a person) to an action; constrain or motivate
syn: impel
3: move with force, "He pushed the table into a corner" syn: push
ant: pull
4: impose or thrust urgently, importunately, or inexorably;
"She forced her diet fads on him" syn: thrust
5: squeeze like a wedge into a tight space; "I squeezed myself
into the corner" syn: wedge, squeeze
6: force into or from an action or state, either physically or
metaphorically; "She rammed her mind into focus"; "He
drives me mad" syn: drive, ram
7: do forcibly; exert force; "Don't force it!"
8: cause to move along the ground by pulling; "draw a wagon";
"pull a sled" syn: pull, draw ant: push
9: take by force; "Storm the fort" syn: storm
Since Microsoft holds the majority of the Desktop PC market,
and they are the only ones who can grant access to their IP
or can grant recognition that any product is supported they
are by definition in a position of authority. Their is no need
for them to be part of a crime enforcement or legal justice
institution in order to be in a position of authority, nor do
they have to use physical force, law or fear. They do use the
the force of legal validity and exercise power, influence and
authority to compel vendors to sign the most restrictive
contracts they can legally get away with. This is a common
practise in most big businesses, but many small and medium
sized businesses, prefer to use fair and reasonable contracts
in order to provide good returns for themselves and yet
allow their customers to enhance their products as they see
fit.
The authority Microsoft holds over the vendor, is that they
reserve the right to have all previously distributed documents
returned, and will no longer provide new documentation or
certify any new drivers and may use patent protection to stop
the vendor from providing any drivers created using information
in previously obtained documentation. This effectively would
stop the vendor from being allowed to provide drivers for
any MS products. MS has been found guilty of using fear as a
tactic by threatening to launch patent litigation and or
piracy audits on vendors when they wanted to alter the
contracts. Microsoft has enough resources to drive almost
any individual, organization or institution into bankruptcy
whether or not they have done anything wrong.
You don't have to be negative to have authority, see definition 6.
>
> > If they don't buckle, they only get to sell products that don't have the
> > various Windows badges of honour that makes it easy to sell your
> > product. i.e. You go from potential mass market to tiny market. Stores
> > aren't going to stock allegedly "unsupported/unsupportable" products.
>
> That is not force, not law, not authority, and not fear. That
> is a voluntary contract entered into by adults.
>
> [snip]
>
> >>I thought I regularly see lists of hardware which "Linux supporters"
> >>should avoid, because the h/w i/f is proprietary, and so the
> >>driver writers for Linux can't/wont get the info necessary to support
> >>the new video chips etc. because they can't/wont afford the price
> >>it takes to buy the docs. Yet Win.. runs on everything I've seen.
> >>To put it another way, what PCs do you NOT see Win.. running on?
> >>I don't see mail echoes where a FAQ is "Does Win.. support this
> >>or that laptop or whatever" whereas I *do* see this for Linux.
> >
> >
> > That's not Microsoft porting to things, that's things being designed to
> > work with Windows. The opposite direction. That's done by
>
> Then why did the drivers come on my Windows disc? Lots of them.
> I'll grant you that when you buy a new piece of hardware it
> often comes with a driver on it's own disc, which is indeed what
> you describe. But it's not all that way.
>
> > manufacturers paying through the nose for the details from Microsoft
> > about how to be compatible with it.
>
> Well, that's their choice, isn't it?
>
> > Nvidia, ESS, S3, et al, don't have to buy documents to find out how to
> > make their hardware work on Linux, but they don't. They'd like, if they
> > cared, for other OS system developers to pay for details for their
> > products, but no free system's going to be in a position to do that.
>
> Eh? As I've been reminded over and over here and elsewhere, "You get
> out of it what you put into it."
>
> > Windows-compatible product development: Hardware manufacturer pays for
> > Windows information from Microsoft.
> >
> > Linux-compatible product development: Expects someone else to buy
> > information from them, or sort it out by themselves, but doesn't want
> > outsiders knowing how their devices work.
>
> Whine, whine, whine. Grow up.
>
> I withdraw from this portion of the discussion.
>
> [snip]
