On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 02:47:14 +0100 (CET), Dag Wieers <dag@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > Jeff, let me simply add that I don't read these long paragraphs without > any structure. But that's probably me. That's unfortunate. I guess I'll stop trying to write comprhensive responses to you until i write a script to turn my prose into well formated python code. > Actually, I bet you have little idea how it works. But you're right, I'm > not considering duplicating _my_ effort if Fedora Extras does no consider > allowing RHEL2.1 or RHEL3 tags. As long as we are clear on where your tight constraints are. Are there any other tight constraints that would prevent you from contributing to the centralized process you want to air now for the record? > If it means forking, the overhead is forced on me, where today there isn't > any overhead. But I do believe you have little idea how my stuff > technically works now, so I'm sure you're overestimating the time spend to > provide backward compatibility. I make no effort to estimate how much effort you spend inside your own build system. I am concerned about how much effort Red Hat has to expend to accomedate your external contraints and how far your external contraints allow you to bend to work inside what fedora process whatever that publicly communicated process is. > That's fine. Call me when it's there. Don't talk about the future as if it > is present. I'm sure my userbase would complain anyway if I waited. > Actually Jeff, there are more repositories. 3000 is a little exagerated > and I don't want to belittle the smaller repositories, in fact I would > invite them to join RPMforge, when they feel they're ready or when we're > ready to invite them. "When we are ready to invite them"... thats an interesting sentence on the heels on your request for me not to talk about the future as if its the present. I'm more than willing to play the part of kettle if you are willing to play the role of pot. RPMforge is there to address the needs of a small group of established 3rd party repos, it will not scale to accomedate all packagers and all repos. I feel RPMforge does more to protect the established brandname status of established repositories than it does to provide a community framework for future packagers and initatives. I'm not exactly happy with the idea of encouraging as Fedora policy a 'community' of packagers that will not scale to include individuals who have skill but not their own infrastructure for distribution. > > BTW Those 4 repositories are spending a large part of the overall effort > in Red Hat contrib packaging. A modest guess would be +40%, so if we're > talking about real effort in total, I think it's a considerable gain. No one argues that right now, today, 3rd party repositories are not playing a significant role. But what I argue is, centralization into one repository has long term advantages for the Fedora project. And I would also argue if Red Hat had thought ahead and provided a framework for this sort of crap during rhl.. we wouldn't have large 3rd party repos. I place ALL the blame on Red Hat for leaving a void and not fostering a centralized packaging network earlier on. > > The advantage is that their stuff will be build for RHEL2.1, RH7.3, RH9, > RHEL3, FC1, FC2 and FC3. For several architectures, i386, x86_64, alpha, > ppc, sparc. And we may add support for other distributions like SuSE or > Conectiva with little overhead and even less duplication effort than > you've been talking about so noisely. If providing cross distribution packages and EOL'd distribution packages is the goal you seek.. then by all means... use your resources as you see fit. But whether or not these goals are considered compatible with Fedora project policy and long term plans remains to be seen. I believe tying package building as closely to each distribution's own process as possible is a better use of resources and provides better integration with each distribution. Personally from your statements, I get the feeling that the cost of any extra overhead to have your packages appear in the Fedora build system will be too much for you to be willing to contribute to a centralized process that lays the ground work for an expanded and more flexible Fedora project. If that is the case, I will simply leave you with good luck to you and your efforts. But please, if you do decide not to contribute to Fedora Extras lets make a clean break of it. I'm not thrilled about the idea of having this sort of conversation again 6 months from now with someone who isn't really invested in trying to work within the established framework (even if that framework is fubared.. i expected a good faith effort from loyal opposition to work within the system). I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt now, hoping to learn what the critical issue are that would keep you from attempting to contribute to an official Fedora Extras. -jef
