On Tue, Jun 26, 2007 at 10:53:29AM -0500, Serge E. Hallyn wrote:
> Quoting Adrian Bunk ([email protected]):
> > On Tue, Jun 26, 2007 at 09:06:44AM -0500, Serge E. Hallyn wrote:
> > > Quoting Adrian Bunk ([email protected]):
> > > > On Mon, Jun 25, 2007 at 10:57:31PM -0500, Serge E. Hallyn wrote:
> > > > > Quoting James Morris ([email protected]):
> > > > > > On Mon, 25 Jun 2007, Andreas Gruenbacher wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > It's useful for some LSMs to be modular, and LSMs which are y/n options won't
> > > > > > > have any security architecture issues with unloading at all.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Which LSMs? Upstream, there are SELinux and capabilty, and they're not
> > > > > > safe as loadable modules.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > The mere fact
> > > > > > > that SELinux cannot be built as a module is a rather weak argument for
> > > > > > > disabling LSM modules as a whole, so please don't.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That's not the argument. Please review the thread.
> > > > >
> > > > > The argument is 'abuse', right?
> > > > >
> > > > > Abuse is defined as using the LSM hooks for non-security applications,
> > > > > right?
> > > > >
> > > > > It seems to me that the community is doing a good job of discouraging
> > > > > such abuse - by redirecting the "wrong-doers" to implement proper
> > > > > upstream solutions, i.e. taskstats, the audit subsystem, etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > Such encouragement seems a far better response than taking away freedoms
> > > > > and flexibility from everyone.
> > > >
> > > > We are not living in a world where everyone had good intentions...
> > >
> > > Oh no, i took a wrong turn somewhere :)
> > >
> > > > For _some_ "wrong-doers" your approach works.
> > > >
> > > > But how do you convince the "wrong-doers" who do things like putting
> > > > MODULE_LICENSE("GPL") into their binary-only modules and who ignore you
> > > > and get away because noone sues them?
> > >
> > > Do these really exist? Maybe noone sues them because noone knows who
> > > they are...
> >
> > http://lwn.net/Articles/82306/
>
> LinuxAnt? Are they using LSM?
>
> It looks to me like this patch will do nothing about them.
It was an example how creative "wrong-doers" sometimes are.
> > > But - note that you've changed completely the meaning of 'abuse'.
> > > So mine was wrong?
> >
> > Technical and legal abuse are related.
>
> True but going by your logic we could remove support for modules period
> to prevent legal abuse by non-gpl modules.
The problem is that this would result in distributions having to ship
50 MB kernel images.
> > For GPL'ed modules you might assume good faith and get the authors to do
> > things in a proper way. Authors of legally questionable modules that
> > cheat in many ways are quite a different issue.
> >
> > > > The spirit of the GPLv2 is to defend the freedom of the software
> > > > (different from the spirit of the BSD licence), and considering that
> > > > there aren't many people defending the GPLv2 copyright of the Linux
> > > > kernel at court against abusers, making it harder for people to do the
> > > > abuse might not be the worst choice...
> > >
> > > Well, but you seem to be saying that the license means squat, and
> > > resorting to making things inconvenient rather than illegal.
> >
> > No, the point is that there's no reason for making illegal things
> > convenient.
>
> But no, the point is that that you are making legal things very
> inconvenient.
>
> > I'm not talking about removing things that are used inside the kernel,
>
> Since capabilities can currently be compiled as a module, you are.
> (Though that sounds weird, so maybe I'm misreading what you are saying)
If the LSM maintainer says non-modular capabilities is the way to go
then there's no user left.
> > but what you call "freedom" can also be called "hooks for possible abuse".
>
> Yup, that is true.
>
> > Additionally, it both makes the kernel bigger for everyone and requires
> > proper handling of loading/unloading in the security architecture.
> >
> > > Now I guess if it really is accepted that that's the way it should be,
> > > then this patch will go in.
>
> thanks,
> -serge
cu
Adrian
--
"Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
"Only a promise," Lao Er said.
Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed
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