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Evgeniy Polyakov wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 12, 2006 at 09:31:42AM -0400, John Richard Moser ([email protected]) wrote:
>> I'm told now that it uses Jiffies for TCP timestamps. I've had thoughts
>> on this:
>>
>> - I figured a random timestamp with random microsecond skew would be
>> nice but this might expose internals of the RNG; amusingly I'm trying
>> not to expose internals of the RNG by exposing system time.
>>
>> - Someone recommended starting at zero. This would work, really,
>> there's no attacks based on guessing the TCP timestamp value. This is
>> nice since if I want to hax0rz then I might make a connection and see
>> how many jiffies there are to get a feel for the system's uptime; this
>> tells me how long since you upgraded your kernel, so I have an arsenal
>> of vulns I KNOW you haven't fixed ready ;) Starting at 0 doesn't give
>> that information.
>>
>> Comments?
>
> Starting TCP timestamp from zero or any other arbitrary value for each
> new connection will not give you any security benefits. There is no
The TCP timestamp is the vessel; the target is the system uptime.
So, "preventing attackers from discovering the uptime of the remote
system will not give you any security benefits" is your statement.
> simple way aleph1 or e-eye will get a remote shell or steal your credit
> card number if there is a buffer overflow in kernel and they will know
> it's release.
Well, they could throw a netfilter buffer overflow at it; but there's
only ever been one I think. ;) Aside from that, it's a matter of doing
reconaissance BEFORE you get a local non-root or getting a local
non-root and THEN picking out your root elevation exploits, which is
only a few minutes difference.
(then again, storming the Bastille wouldn't have worked if they got to
the front door and sat on their asses for 2 minutes)
> So your proposals just are not needed for majority of people, but if you
> strongly feel it will help to find a cure for cancer, implement it and
> prove it's usefullness to netdev community.
>
It's not so much that as the cost of doing an arbitrary value is storing
the number of jiffies that make zero with each connection; this doesn't
seem significant. On the other hand, it removes one method for getting
a piece of information about the system that nobody said you could have;
some "hardened" configurations disable timestamps altogether for this
(amusingly they don't block ICMP Timestamp Reply outgoing). For the
sake of argument, I can at least say this would improve performance of
the RTTM for the paranoid.
In case you're wondering, myself I find this to be of minimal concern as
long as jiffies/uptime/etc have nothing to do with the PRNGs on the system.
- --
All content of all messages exchanged herein are left in the
Public Domain, unless otherwise explicitly stated.
Creative brains are a valuable, limited resource. They shouldn't be
wasted on re-inventing the wheel when there are so many fascinating
new problems waiting out there.
-- Eric Steven Raymond
We will enslave their women, eat their children and rape their
cattle!
-- Bosc, Evil alien overlord from the fifth dimension
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