> Bryan Ischo wrote: > [...] >>The number of users of these programs is probably not terribly large, >> but then again, the size of these programs and the difficulty in >> maintaining them is incredibly small (they have been a part of the base >> X system for about 20 years now and as far as I know there has not been >> a bug or maintaince issue with these programs in 20 years!). >> > Probably you have respond to yourself. I think that what you are referring to is my statement that "the number of users of this program is probably not terribly large". But please balance that against the facts that 1) these programs have been a part of the base distribution for 20 years, 2) I am only supposing that the number of users is not large, I have no idea how many people are actually using it, and 3) these programs have not caused any kind of problem that I am aware of since the beginning of the X11 project some 20+ years ago! [...] >>He has suggested that the X.org software will be removing these >> programs from its core system in the future. Perhaps that is true, but >> why not wait until *then* to remove them from Fedora Core? Why >> pre-emptively remove them without providing for any other place to put >> them? Why not create a new small optional RPM called X-old-utils or >> something like that? >> >> > This should be the most sensate solution to problem. I think you're saying that this is the most sensible solution to the problem, and I agree. >> And why not wait until the X.org project decides to remove these >> programs >>to do that? The simple fact is that it has taken MORE maintainance >> work to prematurely remove these programs, for no apparent reason, than >> it ever did to just leave them in. And it in no way satisfies any user >> to have these programs removed nor does it improve the Fedora Core >> distribution. >> >> > If nobody use them why they should increase packet's size? That's a very fine line to walk. How do we know that "nobody uses them"? What's the process by which the Fedora team decides that "nobody" uses a particular program? Are they applying their criteria consistently for all programs? Or is it just that when one developer arbitrarily decides that he/she doesn't *think* that something is useful, that he/she can just delete it? And if there are then requests from users to put those programs back in, is it standard policy to ignore them? *I* don't use *any* of the KDE programs. Should Fedora just go ahead and remove KDE because some subset of users don't use it? Of course there have to be tradeoffs and decisions made about what programs to include and what not. I'm just saying that 1) the policy should be applied consistently, 2) users' opinions should be included in the decision making process, 3) extra consideration should be given to "legacy" applications that have existed for 20+ years, and 4) if a program is to be removed, it should ideally already have a replacement RPM to make it available to users who still want it. I have no idea if (1) was true in this case, but I am pretty sure that (2) and (3) were not true, and that (4) was definitely not true. >>The most frustrating thing is that Mike A. Harris simply gives no >> reason for removing them, and seems to refuse to respond to user's >> pleas to leave these insignificant programs in the x11-xorg RPM. All >> that is necessary to put these programs back in is the removal of two >> or three comment characters that Mike A. Harris added to the spec file. >> That's it. Why won't he do this? >> >> > This is absolutely THE worst mode for acting... Not sure what you mean here. It's worse for the program to have been removed without (reasonable) explanation, or it's worse to listen to users and put it back in? >>Are these decisions made by a collective of developers at Fedora or is >> it all the work of just one person? If there is collective input on >> this, can I please hear some thoughts from other developers? If it's >> the work of just one person, can I please at least hear a reasonable >> explanation from that person about why this has been done? >> >> > I think that everyman should response on his actions when somebody > asks... I think I agree, if I understand what you are saying. Thank you, and best wishes, Bryan p.s. You may wonder how I respond so quickly to these emails. Ironically enough it's because I get notification *via xbiff, one of the programs removed by Mike A. Harris*, whenever there is new email on this list. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bryan Ischo bryan@xxxxxxxxx N, R, 6 New York, NY, USA http://www.ischo.com RedHat Linux 7.3 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
