On Tue, 2007-12-18 at 22:14 -0500, Gene Poole wrote: > Craig wrote: > But the Sun Java is free. It is just under a license that doesn't allow it > to be bundled with a Fedora distro. IcedTea may be a great thing, but > Oracle ships with a JVM for itself. For Oracle 10g it's 1.4.2. Jedit is a > Java program that doesn't seem to want to work unless it can find > ($JAVA_HOME) certain jar files in the Sun Java Classpath. ---- You can have several different versions of jdk/jre installed and while that might not be the most resource efficient, it is certainly possible to declare environment variables such as JAVA_HOME and CLASSPATH in the startup scripts for various items. As for Sun Java...they have released ***most*** of it now as GPL but in the process, the free software world built the gcj version and wired it in...at least Fedora has done that for a few versions now. If you want a happy system, you try to adapt if you want to install say the IBM or Sun versions of java. That's the point of IcedTea. If you don't care about other software, damn the torpedoes...install the java rpm ---- > > - you don't have to use LVM...the choice is made at install. > > I think you will find that if you select the 'Standard' install where the > installer creates the file systems, it doesn't use LVM but standard > partitioning. I am speaking of a clean machine with no pre-existing > operating system. ---- I'm doing kick start installs these days but I am virtually certain that all 'default' installs will create a single LVM volume + a small ext3 volume for /boot + a swap volume ---- > But they are different from what they were with Fedora Core 6 - a big > difference. It no longer uses that standard IDE constructs, but makes > everything look like SCSI (i.e. that are no longer hda - hdz drives only > SCSI drive types). Under IDE I could have many more partitions per hard > drives than you can with SCSI. I thought you would have grasped that by > now. I know this because I attempted to do a install of Fedora 7 on a > machine that was running Fedora Core 6 and I wanted to do it without > re-partitioning the hard drives. No good, I had to start using LVM because > I needed the equivalent if 17 partitions. ---- Yes, you are limited to 15 partitions on a SCSI drive. Personally, I will never get close to that number on an internal drive/raid array so I hardly consider that a limitation. ---- > > - none of this has any connection whatsoever to an 'M$ C: drive > > mentality'. In fact, the one with the 'M$ C: drive mentality' is you > > because you can't seemingly grasp all of the versatility allowed to you > > with the 'virtual' features of LVM. You can have as many LVM 'volumes' > > as you wish and declare the mount points where you wish. You can have > > /home as a separate LVM volume if you wish...that's about as anti 'M$ C: > > drive mentality' as it could possibly get. > > ---- > > I'm not sure I can get you to see my point. The absolute easiest way to > install Fedora anything is to let the installer define the file systems. > And the easiest way for the installer to do that is to build a tree that is > based on the four partitions I mentioned above. ---- let me see if I get this right...you say that the easiest way is to let Fedora handle the installation but then decry that Fedora has an 'M$ C: drive mentality' because of the default install. ---- > > ---- > > You could download the source RPMs and edit the 'spec' files to control > > where the stuff gets installed but of course, that would take > > knowledge...research > > ---- > > This is another point I tried to make. Take a Windows user attempting to > use/migrate to Linux and try and see their frustration. They don't want to > know more than the minimum necessary to get it to work. I'm beyond that (I > hope). But now you're telling me that I should build a rpm rather than use > the prepackaged tar.gz. That is a pretty wild statement. And remember > this was not the case until Fedora 7. No problem using tar.gz packages in > Fedora 6. What did they change and why? ---- No - actually people build RPM's from the latest tarballs all the time - it's not a wild statement at all. In fact, that is what knowledgeable users will do. It's actually pretty easy to do since the distributions source RPM is basically just a tarball and a spec file so all you really need to do is to download the newer tarball, put it into 'SOURCES', adjust the spec file for versions, install locations that suit you if you must, version and check dependencies (all of which you have do do anyway when you consider the ./configure & make & make install process anyway). NOTHING changed from Fedora 6 to Fedora 7 to Fedora 8 to prevent you from installing from tarballs. ---- > > > Yum doesn't know nor should it know about software installed > outside > > > of it's environment. One great piece of software is jedit and > there > > > is no RPM for it - are you saying I shouldn't use it? There are a > lot > > > of good packages out there that aren't packaged in RPM format > (jedit > > > is a java program). The defacto standard for packages is .tar.gz > > > I've used yum when it was only on the Yellowdog distro (yum = > > > yellowdog update manager). I started in Linux when there was no > RPM. > > ---- > > but Sun does distribute jre/jdk in rpm format. I don't have a clue how > > they distribute jedit...in a jar file perhaps? > > ---- > > jedit is a jar file and I usually install it in my /home directory. Yes, > the java rpm does exist. But, google to find the instructions for > installing the SUN JDK 1.6 on Fedora 7 or Fedora 8 and the majority state > not to use the RPM. Why, because those instructions want you to place the > JDK in /opt. I like my Java in /usr/java; I like my tomcat in /usr/tomcat; > I like my apache in /usr/apache; I like my eclipse in /usr/eclipse; I like > my JBoss in /usr/JBoss; I like my oracle in /usr/oracle. And if there is a > tar.gz package that works and is available, why should I have to build a > rpm? Explain that and if the explanation is good enough, I'll start > building RPMs. If you install Oracle 10g or 11g database on Fedora 8, you > now have to do a 'sed' on the JRE to get it to work. Why, because > something in the system has changed to the point where the standard java > JRE supplied no longer works. That tells me there is something in Fedora 8 > that will never make it to RHEL. And remember that's what this is - a > staging ground for RHEL. ---- yeah, you're right...Fedora packages are really a dense bunch and are deliberately trying to make things difficult for you...NOT First of all, Oracle doesn't support Fedora installation...only RHEL & compatible...but you probably already know that. I never considered that Oracle needed java...guess that shows how much I know about Oracle. What I have learned is that tomcat and everything else java that I've fooled with pretty much only needs to know JAVA_HOME and maybe CLASSPATH environment paths and every program that I've seen sets that in it's startup script or takes it from the shell so it's easy enough to create a 'java.sh' and put it into /etc/profile.d i.e. (my F8 box) # cat /etc/profile.d/java.sh # # For java-gcj-compat package standard install of fedora # PATH=$PATH:/usr/share/java # CLASSPATH=/usr/share/java # export CLASSPATH export CLASSPATH=/usr/java/jre export J2RE_HOME=/usr/java/jre export PATH=$J2RE_HOME/bin:$PATH export JAVA_HOME=/usr/java/jdk1.6.0_03 ---- > > > > > > Resources: > > > http://www.pathname.com/fhs/2.2/fhs-4.11.html > > ---- > > why not read the whole thing instead of just /usr/share > > > > There's a lot of information there. > > I have read it. And besides, I'm not the person that mentioned /usr/share, > it was someone else. ---- yeah but you linked the /usr/share and not the main page. The /usr/share link was a tangential exchange and not directly related to your arguments. There are some things that aren't going to change just because you think they should. The gcj version of java is part of the standard distribution and probably most of the other distributions because of Sun's restrictive licensing of java. Now that Sun has released most of their java as GPL, it has to play nicely with others...there are tools to integrate Sun's release (or Blackdown or IBM's java) with gcj - deal with it. The default choices for hard drive partitioning are necessarily for general use and are probably not the best choice for a production server...again, deal with it. LVM provides maximum flexibility for growing/shrinking partition sizes, adding onto existing volumes etc. No reason to make a big deal about it. The thing that absolutely intrigues me is that you claim to be a long time Linux user and compiling from tarballs, but you have completely ignored the long honored convention of installing tarballs into /usr/local - I suppose that your griping now reflects your reluctance to go with that convention since you've been getting away with unconventional use previously. Craig
