On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:23:51 -0700
Keith Lofstrom <keithl@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> This is a debate between the complainers and the excuse-makers.
LOL.. I think it is rather a debate between those who accept the
nature of Fedora and those who think they deserve something more
than they're getting for free. There is no complaint with people who
ask for help or report problems.
> The complainers (which include me) want responsible behavior. The
> excuse-makers claim that the users who complain aren't worthy.
Everyone contributing to Fedora is acting responsible. The only
lack of responsibility is shown by those few people who aren't
happy with things and refuse to do something about it themselves
and would rather pretend (or worse actually think) the problem is
with someone else.
> I have been using Redhat for years. I still have RH9 on 3 machines.
> I am using Fedora Core 1 on two machines, and Fedora Core 2 on another.
> Like my fellow complainers, I am also considering replacing them all
> with SUSE or Debian.
That's the beauty of Linux, you have a choice. How much money will
RedHat lose because of your move?
> I would dearly love for the fedora model to work; there are some
> excellent people contributing here. But there are also those who
> get their kicks by abusing newbies and playing power games. They
> make the whole fedora and linux community look bad.
Nobody likes abusing the poor newbies. Every day newbies join
the list and get answers to their questions. Don't confuse newbies
and trolls, both get answers appropriate to their posts.
> Look at the fedora website - what it actually says, what it does
> not actually say. The website sales fluff is very inviting, and
> does NOT actually describe what goes on with Fedora - the bugginess,
> the hostility, the willful neglect of bugzilla reports, the scorn
> for professional concerns (that is, customer-centric, quality-oriented,
> and money-making). Maybe, relative to other distros, Fedora is the
> best of the bunch, and I will be disappointed by a change. But
> relative to my other, non-software professional concerns, FC2 and
> the process that produced it are quite buggy and unreliable.
There is no hostility except to people who enter the conversation
with a hostile attitude themselves. Anyone looking for help
and/or offer help doesn't see any hostility. You seem to
think FC1 is ok, but now you say FC2 is buggy and therefore
you're ready to characterize the entire process as bad. If you
had a good understanding of the situation you would have
appreciated all the new things going into FC2 and anticipated
some additional teething problems. There is every reason
to believe that future releases will be just as stable as FC1.
> An honest description on the website of what to expect - especially
> for test releases - would go a long way towards moving complainers
> elsewhere. This would leave the rest of the community alone to
> pursue the bleeding edge - and beyond - in quiet, happy obscurity.
Yes, I think you're right that better communication and descriptions
are needed. Also it will help as more community involvment happens
and more developers from outside RedHat get involved. Would be
nice if that was happening a bit faster.
>
> This is not what the excuse-makers want to hear. They would like
> their irresponsible behavior to actually work in the real world.
> Well, here in the real world you must give 200%, suffer enormous
> abuse, strain to the limit to satisfy your customers/users, and
> even with all that effort you will still sometimes miss your target.
> If you don't even try, you will end up planting your flag in a
> dungheap and calling it Mount Everest, and never understand why
> other folks are complaining about the smell.
The excuse-makers, as you want to characterise, them are just
asking for a measured response and a deeper understanding
of the Fedora project.
>
> Complainers, if you were using Redhat because of the excellent
> support, get over it. Those days are gone. That kind of support
> is not available here. It may not be available anywhere. Too bad,
> it is what could have made Linux a contender for the average desktop.
Yes it is available. Just pay for it.
> Fedora is not the evolutionary successor of Redhat; it is a highly
> experimental distro, and FC2 is just one more pre-beta test distro.
> There is a place for that, but it should not be advertised (read
> the web page dammit) as anything suitable for average users and
> day-to-day use.
FC2 is more experimental and forward looking than most releases
will be. If you go back you'll see much of the same freaking out
done by similar people back when RHL moved from the 2.2 kernel
to the 2.4 kernel. And guess what... we all survived.
>
> Yes, many average people can use Fedora day-to-day; most smokers
> don't die of lung cancer. But until Fedora comes with warnings
> ("don't use FC2 if you have an ATI Rage 128 video card", "support
> for this version disappears in 8 months" and the time honored "you
> get what you pay for") so the average person can make an informed
> choice, loading Fedora Core 2 is much like playing Russian roulette.
No. The consequences aren't as great as with Russian roulette.
AFAIK, support hasn't been discontinued for ATI Rage 128 video card
it's just a regression that needs to be fixed in the new release. Sometimes
you have to take a step back before you can take a step forward.
Development isn't always a straight line. And yes, you do get what
you pay for. Too many people abused RedHat without paying for
anything from them. This had to change and is healthy for Linux.
Do you know how much RedHat gives back to the community that
ends up in other distributions like Suse and Debian? A lot of important
work in the kernel is payed for by RedHat is donated back to the community
and shows up in other distribution. If you don't understand that then
you're always going to be bitter and feel hard done by.
> FC2 is indeed "doubtful quality". You should be very skeptical
> before loading it. That doesn't make it "bad", it just makes it
> incompatable with the goals of many users. FC2 is a race car, not
> a BMW, and it should be advertised as the former and not the latter.
> Again, look at the website!
Perhaps. But Fedora is the home of emerging technologies and
the people helping resolve the problems here will actually be helping
all distributions when they finally decide to move to the 2.6 kernel.
There are lots of other choices if you don't want to be part of this
process and you can wait for FC3 for instance.
> Fellow complainers, pay close attention to the excuse makers. An
> excuse is a promise to repeat the same behavior in the future. If
> you feel that the excuse-to-solution ratio is too high, perhaps it
> is indeed time to look for more professional behavior elsewhere.
> I have a colo site with bandwidth. Does anyone know how to set up
> a mailing list? We could call it "redhat-recovery" and focus on
> techniques for moving on. Then we could leave these other happy
> folks to quietly enjoy their sandbox.
>
That would be great. You should try that and see how it works out.
Cheers,
Sean
