--- Kyle Moffett <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Aug 11, 2007, at 17:01:09, Casey Schaufler wrote:
> >> [SELinux...] which can do *all* of this, completely and without
> >> exceptions,
> >
> > That's quite a strong assertion.
>
> It is, but I stand by it. If anyone can point out some portion of
> this which *cannot* be implemented as SELinux policy I will humbly
> step completely out of this discussion.
Ok. I accept that you believe that this.
> >> but one does have to have complexity in order to handle everything
> >> from CD burning in X, to Apache daemons, to only allowing Top-
> >> Secret-level logins over the IPsec tunnel on the Top Secret
> >> network, etc.
> >
> > I do not agree with you. The MLS systems from the 1990's could do
> > all that (except the IPsec tunnel, the function of which was
> > preceeded by TSIG interfaces and protocols) without the complexity
> > required by SELinux policy.
>
> No, most/all of the MLS systems from the 1990s did not integrate Bell-
> LaPadula, Type Enforcement, and Role-Based-Access-Control together.
Err, that wasn't the claim I was refuting. I was refuting the claim
that performing those actions required complexity. The claim I was
refering to said nothing about any of those features or anything about
their integration.
> In addition, none of the MLS systems from the 1990s had modifiable
> constraints the way SELinux does (for example I can modify the
> fundamental policy to allow a process whose domain has the
> "i_am_special" attribute to override the BLP model for certain target
> types in certain special situations, all depending on how I apply
> that attribute and those types).
That's fine, but hardly relevent to the fact that the 1990's systems
performed the list of functions.
> >> For example, this set of rules basically defines your described
> >> "read-vs-write-vs-exec" policy as best I can figure out:
> >>
> >> user uu roles rr;
> >>
> >> role rr types { star floor hat huh };
> >>
> >> define(`r',`
> >> allow $1 $2:file { read getattr };
> >> allow $1 $2:socket { read getattr getopt recvfrom recv_msg };
> >> allow $1 $2:ipc { getattr read associate unix_read };
> >> ## List of more "read" allow rules for different types of
> >> objects... ##
> >> ')
> >
> > It would be instructive for those who are not well versed in the
> > nuances of SELinux policy if you actually spelled out the whole
> > thing, rather than using "## and more ##". Part of the point of
> > Smack is the makeup of the full list that would be required here.
>
> Well, yes, but how exactly do you define "read", "write", and
> "execute" for the full list of SELinux object classes found here:
> http://www.tresys.com/selinux/obj_perms_help.html
Smack is designed to treat objects as consistantly as is reasonable.
The list of object classes defined by SELinux is great for a system
designed to treat accesses with the highest possible granularity.
This is not a design goal for Smack.
> I was considering compiling the complete list, but such an exercise
> would take me at least an hour to do properly and which categories
> individual permissions should be placed in could be argued for
> weeks.
I will be happy to consider your arguement when you are willing
to present the complete argument.
> The SELinux reference policy doesn't even completely qualify
> all of those things with MLS restrictions, and they're the ones who
> got the hooks implemented originally.
That doesn't help your case any.
> Specifically, do you classify the bind() syscall as a "read" or a
> "write" operation.
Neither. Bind attaches a name (port number) to a socket (which is a
data structure that is part of your process) from a global namespace.
No objects are involved, hence no accesses.
> How would you classify accept()?
I don't. Accept happens after a TCP connection has been established.
The access control is all mediated long before the accept'er finds
out about it.
> In order to
> support the full range of security controls that Linux has hooks for,
> you would need to identify a list of how to define "read", "write",
> and "execute" for every object-class in that massive list.
> Furthermore you would need to ensure that the definitions work for
> every process. From the variations between different portions of the
> SELinux ref policy, I contend that there is no single definition of
> "read", or "write" which works for all usages of a given object-class.
There certainly isn't in SELinux. I don't subscribe the the list
of SELinux object classes. We can argue a long time over whether a
socket is an object or not, and it won't help any real world application
one bit.
> >> And now to describe these rules:
> >>
> >>> Smack defines and uses these labels:
> >>> "*" - pronounced "star"
> >>> "_" - pronounced "floor"
> >>> "^" - pronounced "hat"
> >>> "?" - pronounced "huh"
> >>>
> >>> The access rules enforced by Smack are, in order:
> >>>
> >>> 1. Any access requested by a task labeled "*" is denied.
> >>> 2. A read or execute access requested by a task labeled "^"
> >>> is permitted.
> >>> 3. A read or execute access requested on an object labeled "_"
> >>> is permitted.
> >>> 4. Any access requested on an object labeled "*" is permitted.
> >>> 5. Any access requested by a task on an object with the same
> >>> label is permitted.
> >>> 6. Any access requested that is explicitly defined in the loaded
> >>> rule set is permitted.
> >>> 7. Any other access is denied.
> >>
> >> ## These are calls to the above macros which plug in the necessary
> >> arguments
> >> r(hat, {*})
> >> x(hat, {*})
> >> r(~{star}, floor)
> >> x(~{star}, floor)
> >> r(~{star}, star)
> >> w(~{star}, star)
> >> x(~{star}, star)
> >> r(~{star}, self)
> >> w(~{star}, self)
> >> x(~{star}, self)
> >> ## Include your "loaded rule set" here ##
> >
> > What would that look like?
>
> The same kind of thing as the r, x, and w above, with occasional
> "type my_type_t; role rr types my_type_t;" to declare a type before
> use. If you wanted to add support for attributes which apply to
> multiple types, you could put those after a comma after the "type
> my_type_t" portion of the type declaration.
Well, I'm interested in seeing the actual code, not "the same kind
of thing" as arguement.
> >>> Smack rule sets can be easily defined that describe Bell&LaPadula
> >>> sensitivity, Biba integrity, and a variety of interesting
> >>> configurations. Smack rule sets can be modified on the fly to
> >>> accomodate changes in the operating environment or even the time
> >>> of day.
> >>
> >> SELinux can do this as well. It even includes support for
> >> conditional policy:
> >>
> >> bool foo_can_do_logging true;
> >> if (foo_can_do_logging) {
> >> allow foo_t foo_log_t:file { create read getattr append };
> >> }
> >
> > You have to build the booleans into the policy in advance.
>
> Well, yes, but a policy which completely ignores
This sentence no verb.
> >> The SELinux tools also have support for policy modules, so you can
> >> extend the policy without modifying the base system.
> >
> > And that's a good thing, but you still have to compile and reload
> > your policy, and maybe relabel you filesystem when you do so.
>
> What exactly prevents you from having to "reload" and "relabel the
> filesystem" when using your system?
Good question. First, changing Smack rules is no big deal. They
can be added or changed one by one as required while the system is
running, and there are uses that exploit that. One example is to
put the label "Game" on certain programs and:
at 8:00am "Worker Game no"
at 5:00pm "Worker Game x"
Thus Worker processes can access Game files only during off hours.
As far as relabeling the file system goes, the rules apply to
processes and objects, not to programs. The label on a program
describes who can access it, it will run with the label of the
process that exec's it. A change in the rules does not require a
change to the labels on the file system for things to work
according to the rules of engagement.
> When you change the meaning of
> new types, you clearly would need to first reload the policy then
> relaunch programs or relabel files to take advantage of the new
> types, otherwise they would be categorically ignored by the system.
I'm sorry, but again, I don't know what you mean by "changing the
meaning of new types".
> The only difference is the "compile" step, which converts from a
> reasonably modifiable language into a binary format which the kernel
> can efficiently parse.
I think you may be making assumptions about the behavior of
Smack based on what SELinux does that don't hold. I hesitate
to call a Smack rule list a language.
> I suspect you'd get shot down instantly if
> you tried to stuff the policy compiler in the kernel too.
Heavens, I should hope so!
Smack rule specifications are really really basic, just the
subject label, the object label, and the access permitted.
There are no wildcards, no expressions (regular or otherwise)
and they apply to all objects. Only the labels are taken into
account on an access check, not the userid, the current
directory, the time of day, or the binary involved. Oh,
there is a capability to override the check, but that's just
basic Linux behavior and I wouldn't want to muck that up.
> >>> Some practical use cases:
> >>>
> >>> Hierarchical levels. The less common of the two usual uses for
> >>> MLS systems is to define hierarchical levels, often
> >>> unclassified, confidential, secret, and so on. To set up smack to
> >>> support this, these rules could be defined:
> >>>
> >>> C Unclass rx
> >>> S C rx
> >>> S Unclass rx
> >>> TS S rx
> >>> TS C rx
> >>> TS Unclass rx
> >>>
> >>> A TS process can read S, C, and Unclass data, but cannot write
> >>> it. An S process can read C and Unclass. Note that specifying
> >>> that TS can read S and S can read C does not imply TS can read C,
> >>> it has to be explicitly stated.
> >>
> >> The big problem here is the duplication. Say you have a locked-
> >> down Apache configuration and you want to run 2 apache processes,
> >> one at Secret and one at Top-Secret. Under your model you have to
> >> copy-paste the policy and make sure to apply fixes/changes to both
> >> places.
> >
> > I'm sorry, but I don't understand your point at all.
>
> Ok, let's say you want to use your model to restrict Apache and MySQL
> running at the same classification level. You have to define
> combined labels, such as:
> S_Apache S_MySQL rx
> [...]
>
> Now if you want to run an apache/mysql pair at TS, you have to copy
> all those rules and substitute "S_" with "TS_".
There is only one rule to copy. I think most sysadmins can insert
a "T" with sufficient confidence that this is not going to be a
major issue.
> With SELinux, you
> don't have to do anything other than define new labels for the secret-
> web-docs and the top-secret-web-docs folders,
Which if you actually write out the change is going to require
more than inserting a "T".
> because the Apache
> *type-enforcement* policy is completely independent from the MLS
> levels. You can write a 5-line policy to label 2 slightly different
> initscripts with different range-transitions. The only difference
> between them will be the paths inside and the labels on them. The
> rest of apache's policy stays the same.
>
> >> This is exactly what my company does, but the ability to restrict
> >> *exactly* what mechanisms are used is important. You restrict
> >> against file-system access implicitly, whereas SELinux does it
> >> explicitly:
> >> allow foo_t foo_sock_t:socket { .... };
> >> versus:
> >> allow foo_t foo_log_t:file { ... };
> >>
> >> With SELinux you can also allow your program to create files
> >> labelled as "log files" in one directory in one type and "transfer
> >> files" in another directory in a completely different type.
> >
> > I would be very interested to see the policy that your guard box uses.
>
> Unfortunately that's still considered company-proprietary information
> at the moment, although that's likely to change at some point in the
> future. We're not all that different from the httpd policies and
> similar stuff found in the SELinux "refpolicy" available from tresys'
> website.
I think there's a rule against using proprietary information
that you can't share in a friendly debate on the LKML.
> >> I'm proud to say that the software of the company I work for does
> >> not need any extra privilege at all (aside from binding to ports
> >> <1024) to run under SELinux with strict MLS.
> >
> > That is an aspect of SELinux that has its dark side. While you are
> > not explicitly violating a policy (e.g. requiring a capability) you
> > are doing things that some of us would argue ought to require a
> > capability. SELinux integrates privilege into the policy mechanism.
>
> How does "moving data around a system" require root privileges?
Hmm. You snuck the adjective "root" into the discussion when it
wasn't there before.
> Why should it? Admittedly, moving data from "TopSecret" to "Secret"
> requires a process labeled with a range including at least "S-TS"
> *and* with the MLS "read-to-clearance" attribute, but you can be as
> stingy with that attribute as you like.
Yup. And plenty of people like you think that is really spiffy.
> That attribute is explicitly
> given its magic abilities in the mlsconstrain rules defined in the
> policy file itself, so it's also possible to do information flow
> analysis on it.
I much prefer strait-up process capabilities to magic attributes.
Call me old fashioned if you want to.
> > Smack does not. Smack is designed to use traditional Linux
> > mechanisms for privilege.
> >
> >> Under Trusted Solaris and such we needed all sorts of dirty
> >> privilege hacks to relabel the files consistently, but under
> >> SELinux the policy does all the relabeling for us, we don't need
> >> to do a thing.
> >
> > Yeah. Well, you won't like Smack then. Implicit relabeling of
> > processes and files does not happen. This is a major philisophical
> > difference.
>
> Here's an argument for why implicit labeling is good and explicit
> labeling is bad: If your process wants to label things explicitly it
> needs special privileges to do so, and it can abuse those
> privileges.
With privilege comes responsibility, and there has to be some effort
made to ensure that privileged programs behave correctly.
> Under SELinux the labeling is implicit *AND* the
> transitions are entirely within the policy. This means that you can
> do information flow analysis (as I described above) and it *ALSO*
> means that the program cannot possibly "abuse" its privileges because
> it has none.
It means you have not only the program to worry about being written
correctly, but the policy as well.
> When httpd creates a file in its log directory that
> file is created with httpd_log_t and it is limited to being able to
> append to the file *only*. So when your apache gets compromised, the
> attacker has NO WAY to modify the logs, and you can prove this with a
> 60-second study of the policy. In fact, on my companies productions
> systems I can *PROVE* that the only way to get audit data out of the
> system is via a local TTY by interacting with
> system_u:object_r:local_login_t:SystemLow-SystemHigh to log in with a
> process of someluser:auditreview_r:auditreview_t:SystemHigh, which
> may read the audit files, or
> otherluser:auditadmin_r:auditadmin_t:SystemHigh, which may read and
> delete the audit files. I can even prove that no process on the
> system is allowed to modify the files after they are created, barring
> a kernel-level vulnerability.
Good. That is as it should be.
> So the implicit labeling of files actually restricts every process
> *FURTHER*. They no longer have even an inkling of a choice about
> file labeling, and that's a GOOD thing.
That's true about Smack, you know. The process has no choice about
the label that the files gte.
> The only remaining extension
> we need to really thoroughly lock down our systems is to allow last-
> path-component matching in type-transitions and allow rules (EG:
> When "vipw" creates a file named "passwd" in an "etc_t" directory, it
> is automatically labeled "etc_passwd_t")
Hey, and AppArmor does that today!
> From what I understand
> Stephen Smalley and others are thinking that over even now. I'll do
> it myself as soon as I get time at work beyond prepping systems for
> shipping to clients if they haven't finished it by them.
You might want to review the archives on how that experiment ended up
before saying much more about it.
Thank you for your comments. I hope that I have made the behavior
and value of Smack clearer in responding to them.
Casey Schaufler
[email protected]
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