On Thursday 14 June 2007 17:39:32 Alexandre Oliva wrote:
<snip>
>
> And since the specific implementation involves creating a derived work
> of the GPLed kernel (the signature, or the signed image, or what have
> you) and refraining from providing the corresponding sources to that
> derived work (the key and the signature "build scripts"), I still
> think this specific case is a violation of the letter of the GPLv2,
> even if the FSF doesn't take this position.
Not entirely correct. If TiVO is making a change to the binary to include the
signature, then it *could* be considered a derivative work. If the signature
is stored in another place - say a bit of Flash or a separate file on the
disc - then there is no way for it to be considered a derivative work. (Under
US law, IIRC and I I've interpreted it (and the related cases) properly then
the change would have to be to the source of the program for it to be
considered a "derivative". But, as you say often and I should make clear
myself, IANAL)
>
> > It seems pretty obvious that the only right Tivo is withholding is the
> > right to install new versions on the device
>
> Actually, no. They withhold the right to run versions that they don't
> authorize themselves.
And this is relevant to a software license in which way? In particular how is
this relevant to the GPL, which has always *only* guaranteed access to the
source if you have access to the binary, the right to distribute your own
versions and the right to modify the code.
Since the "right to run code" was never guaranteed it *cannot* be a violation.
It might be in conflict with what RMS intended when he wrote the first
version of the GPL and in conflict with the intent of the people that
contributed to GPLv2 but that doesn't matter. However, I will not use (or
recommend) the GPLv3 in its current form because I feel it makes unnecessary
restrictions. The fact that you have to "allow additional rights" to make it
equal to the GPLv2 makes a functional (and spiritual) difference to me.
(Why? Because I'm opposed to "In order to protect freedom X we have to
restrict freedom Y. Its happening in the US *RIGHT* *NOW* and I have been
doing what I can to fight that. Now the same faulty logic is being applied by
the FSF with GPLv3)
> Back when GPLv2 was written, the right to run was never considered an
> issue. It was taken for granted, because copyright didn't control
> that in the US (it does in Brazil), and nobody had thought of
> technical measures to stop people from running modified copies of
> software. At least nobody involved in GPLv2, AFAIK.
Why isn't it in the US? Because the binary form of a program does not and
cannot have a separate copyright than the source code. Since it is the
*SOURCE* that is actually copyright (mechanical translation cannot create a
new work, only a new form of an already copyrighted work) guaranteeing
the "right to run" is pointless.
And you are wrong about that "Nobody thought of it" thing - what you mean is
that "Nobody that had a hand in drafting and ratifying the GPLv2 thought of
it". The "NSA Guidelines for Trusted Systems" (aka "The Orange Book") talks
about methods of preventing the execution of code.
What you and the rest of the FSF is doing in response to "tivoization" is
saying "we don't care if it wasn't designed to do X, we want to be able to
make it do that anyway *AND* the manufacturer has to help us do it". There is
no legal way for you to make that demand of a hardware manufacturer. Instead
you've gone with the only legal recourse - saying "If you want to use my
copyrighted work under license X, you have to do Y". I have no problem with
that, and if the FSF wants that, it's fine by me. But, as I said, I could
care less where and/or if something I release under the GPL is used. This
makes the GPLv2 perfect for me.
> The landscape has changed, and GPLv3 is meant to defend this freedom
> that was taken for granted.
>
> > they never do (and really never could) "modify" the physical copy on
> > your device (which is your main argument).
>
> Qualifying it as the main argument is a bit of an exaggeration. I
> have a number of different arguments. The one about incomplete
> sources is the most solid IMHO.
Yes, it is. But your argument about the TiVO is "they can modify the copy on
it but I can't". Hence it is your main argument. And remember, replace !=
modify.
> >> What do you think you do when you save a modified source file in your
> >> editor?
> >
> > Don't skip the part where the in-memory version started as an exact
> > copy of the original being replaced. Notice the difference? ;)
>
> Sorry, I really don't follow. Both versions of the kernel binary also
> started from a common source ancestor. Were you trying to make a
> distinction on these grounds?
No. He was making a distinction that I have seen made a number of times. That
is, a copy of a copyright work in a computers RAM is a *distinct* copy,
separate from the file on disc it started as. (And that has actually been
argued in a court case. I don't recall the specifics, but I do recall that
the argument was held as valid)
DRH
--
Dialup is like pissing through a pipette. Slow and excruciatingly painful.
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