Randy Dunlap wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 08:42:58 -0800 Stephen Hemminger wrote:
> > Jesper Juhl wrote:
> > > On 10/11/06, Al Boldi <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >> Stephen Hemminger wrote:
> > >
> > > [...]
> > >
> > >> > There are bugfixes which are too big for stable or -rc releases,
> > >> > that are queued for 2.6.20. "Bugfix only" is a relative statement.
> > >>
> > >> > Do you include, new hardware support, new security api's,
> > >> > performance fixes. It
> > >> > gets to be real hard to decide, because these are the changes that
> > >> > often cause regressions; often one major bug fix causes two minor
> > >> > bugs.
> > >>
> > >> That's exactly the point I'm trying to get across; the 2.6 dev model
> > >> tries to
> > >> be two cycles in one, dev and stable, which yields an awkward catch22
> > >> situation.
> > >>
> > >> The only sane way forward in such a situation is to realize the
> > >> mistake and
> > >> return to the focused dev-only / stable-only model.
> > >>
> > >> This would probably involve pushing the current 2.6 kernel into 2.8
> > >> and starting 2.9 as a dev-cycle only, once 2.8 has structurally
> > >> stabilized.
> > >
> > > That was not what I was arguing for in the initial mail at all.
> > > I think the 2.6 model works very well in general. All I was pushing
> > > for was a single cycle focused mainly on bug fixes once in a while.
Temporary focusing won't help much, as you are dealing with people, who
cannot be turned on and off like machines.
> > I like the current model fine. From a developer point of view:
>
> I don't think that it's great, but having even/odd stable/development
> is even worse.
>
> But I agree with Jesper and Andrew's comments in general, that
> we do have stability problems and we have a lack of people
> who are working on bugs.
The problem is not just simple bugs that surface, it's deeper than that.
Deep structural problems is what plagues 2.6.
Only a focused model may deal with such problems.
> > * More branches means having to fix and retest a bug more places.
> > Workload goes up geometrically with number of versions.
> > So most developers end up ignoring fixing more than 2 versions;
> > anything more than -current and -stable are ignored.
> > * Holding off the tide of changes doesn't work. It just leads to
> > massive integration headaches.
> > * Many bugs don't show up until kernel is run on wide range of
> > hardware, but kernel doesn't get exposed to wide range of hardware and
> > applications until after it is declared stable. It is a Catch-22.
No Catch-22 here. You just fix those to achieve stability.
It's when you start to flip-flop dev/stable/dev/stable/... that you get
Catch-22, which inhibits stability.
> > The current stability range of
> > -subtree ... -mm ... 2.6.X ... 2.6.X.Y... 2.6.vendor
> > works well for most people. The people it doesn't work for are
> > trying to get something for nothing. They want stability and the latest
> > kernel at the same time.
That's not the impression I got from Andrew's stats.
> > There are some things that do need working on:
> > * Old bugs die, the bugzilla database needs a 6mo prune out.
> >
> > * Bugzilla.kernel.org is underutilized and is only a small sample of
> > the real problems. Not sure if it is a training, user, behaviour issue
> > or just that bugzilla is crap.
>
> Behavior, ease of use vs. email.
Go email. Maybe even automated.
> > * Vendor bugs (that could be fixed) aren't forwarded to lkml or
> > bugzilla
>
> ack
>
> > * LKML is an overloaded communication channel, do we need:
> > [email protected] ?
No.
> Either that or lkml is/remains for bug reporting and we move development
> somewhere else. Or my [repeated] preference:
>
> do development on specific mailing lists (although there would
> likely need to be a fallback list when it's not clear which mailing
> list should be used)
Yes. Needs more thought, though.
> > * Developers can't get (or afford to buy) the new hardware that
> > causes a lot of the pain. Just look at the number of bug reports due to
> > new flavors of motherboards, chipsets, etc. I spent 3mo on a bug that
> > took one day to fix once I got the hardware.
>
> Yep.
Thanks!
--
Al
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