Re: uswsusp history lesson [was Re: [Suspend2-devel] Re: swsusp / suspend2 reliability]

["Rafael J. Wysocki" <rjw@sisk.pl>]

Hi,

On Saturday 08 July 2006 13:31, Nigel Cunningham wrote:
> On Saturday 08 July 2006 20:38, Rafael J. Wysocki wrote:
> > On Saturday 08 July 2006 05:42, Nigel Cunningham wrote:
> > > On Saturday 08 July 2006 10:28, Pavel Machek wrote:
> > > > I really looked at suspend2 hard, year or so ago, when I was pretty
> > > > tired of the flamewars. At that point I decided it is way too big to
> > > > be acceptable to mainline, and got that crazy idea about uswsusp, that
> > > > surprisingly worked out at the end.
> > > >
> > > > uswsusp makes suspend2 obsolete, and suspend2 now looks
> > > > misdesigned. It puts too much stuff into the kernel, you know that
> > > > already.
> > >
> > > No, I don't. From my point of view, uswsusp is misdesigned, but suspend2
> > > isn't. Suspend2 keeps the stuff that ought to be done by the kernel in
> > > the kernel. It doesn't shift data out to userspace, only to copy it
> > > straight back to the kernel for I/O. It will keep working even if
> > > userspace crashes and burns. It leverages support for compression and
> > > encryption that's already in the kernel. It does a real image of memory,
> > > not a half-pie attempt that causes lots of faulting of pages etc
> > > post-resume.
> >
> > I must say I completely disagree with the last sentence here.  AFAICT,
> > suspend2 does the following:
> > a) save LRU pages in the hope they won't be accesses after the system
> > has been snapshotted,
> > b) create the memory snapshot using the, now saved, LRU pages as additional
> > storage,
> > c) save the snapshot image created in b).
> >
> > There are two problems here.  First, actually we are not sure if using LRU
> > pages as additional storage in b) is correct.  At least I've not seen any
> > argument supporting this except for "it has been tested for a long time
> > and nobody's reported any problems with it".  Second, in fact suspend2
> > saves two images, one consisting of LRU pages only and the second
> > consisting of the rest of memory.  Moreover, extra care must be taken while
> > saving LRU pages so that they don't get corrupted in the process and this
> > makes things quite complicated.
> 
> LRU pages are only going to be modified if:
> 
> a) kswapd runs and frees some
> b) memory allocation paths try to get memory freed.
> c) Userspace processes with these LRU pages run.

Not only then, it appears.  Some of them my be modified due to
completions, timers, etc. and the modifications may be triggered
from interrupt context.  At least that's what Andrew told me last time
this was discussed and I just didn't have any good answer to that.

That's why the patch has not been applied.

> We have kswapd frozen, hooks to stop other processes trying to free memory 
> (yes, I'm going to switch to your method of taking the pages off the lists), 
> and userspace processes are frozen or their pages are excluded from the list.
> 
> > However, if we are sure that we can use LRU pages as additional storage in
> > b), they just can be included in the memory image without copying
> > and we only need some extra room for the other data and code.
> > If LRU pages take 50% of memory, this would allow us to create
> > a signle snapshot image as big as 75% of RAM (on x86_64).  IMO the
> > remaining 25% are not worth the increased complexity of suspend2,
> > especially that on 1 GB machine 75% of RAM is too much to save
> > for performance reasons (ie. the extra time you save by making the
> > system more responsive after resume is lost for saving and restoring
> > the image, even if compression is used).
> 
> It's only too slow on swsusp. With Suspend2, I regularly suspend 1GB images on 
> both my desktop and laptop machines. I agree that it might be slower on a 
> 4200RPM laptop drive, but you also have to balance this against faulting the 
> pages back in post resume (which will be slower because they're not 
> compressed and contiguous then, though maybe not not as noticable if you're 
> saving 75% of memory).
> 
> > Furthermore, I tried to measure how much time would actually be saved if
> > the images were greater than 50% of RAM (current swsusp's limit) and it
> > turned out to be 10% at the very last, with compression (on a 256MB box
> > with PII).
> 
> I think you'll find that this depends very much on the kind of workload you 
> have, and how you try to compare apples with apples. If you're running lots 
> of memory intensive apps (say VMware with a couple of hundred meg allocated, 
> Open Office writer, Kmail, a couple of terminals and so on - I'm just 
> describing what I normally run), you'll miss that extra memory more.

Well, I tried really hard to justify the patch that allowed swsusp to create
bigger images and 10% was the greatest speedup I could get out of it
and, let me repeat, _with_ compression and async I/O.  I tried to simulate
different workloads etc., but I couldn't get more than 10% speedup
(the biggest image I got was as big as 80% of RAM) - counting the time
from issuing the suspend command to getting back _responsive_ system
after resume.

> > > If there's any misdesign in Suspend2, it's that I haven't made it a
> > > special case of checkpointing. But, of course, there's no support for
> > > checkpointing in the rest of the kernel at the moment anyway.
> > >
> > > > From your point of view, uswsusp is misdesigned, too. It is too damn
> > > > hard to install. There's no way it could survive as a standalone patch
> > > > -- the way suspend2 survives. Fortunately, from distro point of view,
> > > > being hard to install does not matter that much. Distros already have
> > > > their own initrds, etc. And in the long term, distros matter, and I'm
> > > > quite confident I can make 90% distributions ship uswsusp + its
> > > > userland; cleaner kernel code matters, too, and maybe you'll agree
> > > > that if you only look at the kernel parts, uswsusp looks nicer.
> > >
> > > It looks simple, I agree. But that's only because it's doing the minimum
> > > required.
> >
> > Again, I don't agree with this statement.  Moreover uswsusp (gosh, I _hate_
> > this name) is being developed on a regular basis, so I think it'll be doing
> > a bit more in the future.
> 
> I know how you feel about uswsusp :) That's why I tried to get suspend into 
> use in it's place.
> 
> > > > Now, you are asking me to review 14000 lines of code. That's quite a
> > > > lot of code, and you did not exactly make reviewer's life easy. Also
> > > > reviews usually stop at first "fatal" problem, and you still drive
> > > > user interface from kernel. (Yes, drawing is done in userland, but
> > > > core user interface code is still in kernel). That is "fatal".
> > >
> > > I agree that I didn't do the best job of making the reviewer's life easy.
> > > But let's give me some credit. I did all those patches because I
> > > genuinely thought that's what was requested the last time I submitted
> > > patches for review. I didn't like splitting up the files into all those
> > > patches - it was a lot of work and took a lot of time. But I did it
> > > because I wanted to do what was asked and wanted to do what was necessary
> > > to get a good implementation into the vanilla kernel.
> > >
> > > Frankly, I'd rather be working on improving drivers and helping implement
> > > the run-time power management than working on getting Suspend2 merged.
> > > But for now, this is the immediate task.
> >
> > Why so?
> 
> Why the immediate task, or why would I prefer to work on other things? I'll 
> assume the former. Because I like to finish one things before starting 
> another, and I'm thinking Suspend2 isn't finished until it's merged. 
> Developmentwise, I think it's finished - unless I want to go off in a new 
> direction and start implementing checkpointing, but I have virtually zero 
> impetus for that at the moment.
> 
> > > I don't know why you see the user interface code as a problem. All the
> > > kernel is doing is telling the userspace program, via a netlink socket,
> > > what's going on and receiving messages from the userspace program
> > > sometimes.
> > >
> > > > (Greg mentioned /proc usage being "fatal", too).
> > > >
> > > > Now... moving user interface into userland, and removing /proc usage
> > > > are big tasks, do you agree? And they will mean lot of changes, and
> > > > lot of new testing.
> > >
> > > Removing /proc isn't a big task. It will affect the hibernate script far
> > > more that the kernel code. The user interface is already in userland.
> > >
> > > > Perhaps at this point right solution is to just drop suspend2
> > > > codebase, and do it again, this time in userland? Kernel
> > > > infrastructure is already there, and even if you wanted to replace
> > > > [u]swsusp by suspend2, you have to understand how the old code
> > > > works. (Another point you may like is that forking suspend.sf.net code
> > > > is relatively easy; so even if we disagree about coding style of the
> > > > userland parts, I can't veto it or something. And given that your only
> > > > problem is including all the possible features, I probably will not
> > > > have reason to stop you or something -- having all the features is
> > > > okay in userland).
> > >
> > > I don't want to fork anything. I didn't fork swsusp to start with, and I
> > > don't want to start forking things now. (If you want to debate that
> > > point, can you check the mailing list archives on Sourceforge, Berlios
> > > and suspend2.net first? You'll find that I just carried on where Florent
> > > left off).
> > >
> > > > Now... switching to uswsusp kernel parts will make it slightly harder
> > > > to install in the short term (messing with initrd). OTOH there's at
> > > > least _chance_ to get to the point where suspend "just works" in
> > > > Linux, in the long term...
> > > >
> > > > (Of course, you can just ignore this and keep maintaining out-of-tree
> > > > suspend2. We'll also get to the point where it "just works"... it will
> > > > just take a little longer.)
> > >
> > > With your current design, I don't see how you're ever going to get to the
> > > level of functionality that Suspend2 has. I'm of course thinking of a
> > > full image of memory (although Rafael's patch a while back looked hopeful
> > > there) and support for other-than-just-one-swap-partition.
> >
> > These are two different points.
> >
> > Actually, as I said above, as soon as we are _sure_ that LRU pages are not
> > touched after the memory has been snapshotted, my patch will be mergeable
> > and we'll get the ability to create bigger images without the added
> > complexity.  [Apart from the fact that the whole memory image on a box with
> > more that 512 MB of RAM wouldn't make much sense, IMHO.]  The _only_ thing
> > needed here is an argument which you have to provide anyway to show that
> > suspend2 does the right thing.
> >
> > As far as the support for ordinary files, swap files, etc. is concerned,
> > there's nothing to worry about.  It's comming.
> 
> Great. It will be good to see that. Do you have some way around bmapping the 
> files?

No, I don't.

Greetings,
Rafael
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