Re: o_sync in vfat driver

[col-pepper@piments.com]

On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 15:41:44 +0100, Anton Altaparmakov <aia21@cam.ac.uk>  
wrote:

> On Mon, 2006-02-27 at 15:27 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> > On Mon, 2006-02-27 at 14:06 +0000, Anton Altaparmakov wrote:
> > > On Mon, 2006-02-27 at 14:50 +0100, Arjan van de Ven wrote:
> > > > On Mon, 2006-02-27 at 08:28 -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> > > > > On Sun, Feb 26, 2006 at 11:50:40PM +0100, col-pepper@piments.com  
> > wrote:
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > OMG what do I have to do to post here? 10th attempt.
> > > > > > {part2}
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here is a non-exhaustive list of typical devices types  
> > requiring fat vfat
> > > > > > support:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > fd ide-hd scsi-hd usb-hd cdrom usb-hd usb-handheld (iPod,  
> > iRiver etc)
> > > > > > usb-flash (usbsticks, cameras, some music devices.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > IIRC the sync mount option for vfat is ignored for file systems  
> > >2G, this
> > > > > > effectively (and probably intentionally) excludes nearly all hd  
> > partitions
> > > > > > and iPod type devices.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think many people wish it was ignored on smaller devices too  
> > given
> > > > > what it does to write performance.
> > > >
> > > > well. If you don't want it *DO NOT USE IT AT THE MOUNT COMMAND  
> > LINE* !!!
> > >
> > > That is easy to say when you are using the command line...  Modern
> > > distros (as you know I am sure) mount all hot-plug devices like usb
> > > keys, usb hard disks, etc automatically at plug-in time and at least
> > > some distros use "-o sync"
> >
> > that is a bad misdesign of that distro or at least the tool the distro
> > uses for this (I don't know which it is so I can say that without
> > sounding partial :)
> >
> > the tool that decides to use "sync", or at least the author thereof,
> > should be aware of what flash is, and that it has a limited lifespan etc
> > etc, and that you thus want maximum caching etc.
>
> I agree completely which is why we hack the system to remove the o_sync
> on our distro derivative.  (-:
>
> But my point was that your solution of "don't do that then" is not much
> use to your average user who sits in front of such distro in graphical
> desktop as they are not technical enough to find and hack their hotplug
> system to work properly...
>
> Best regards,
>
>         Anton

> > If you don't want it *DO NOT USE IT AT THE MOUNT COMMAND LINE* !!!

Yeah, cleaver.
That is not really a constructive responce. I dont use , I do use command  
line mount all the time. I never was in danger of damaging my drive with  
this new "feature".

Telling a user who has just burnt out a brand new 1GB usb device he should  
have RTFM and modified that HAL configuration to insure it did not use  
sync it not likely to win much confidence in the linux kernel.

The point of raising this is that the vast majority of linux users have no  
awareness of this. If there is a danger of this sync implementation  
damaging hardware it should be done differently.

More importantly this sync strategy is very likely _increasing_ the danger  
of data loss that is the core reason for using sync in the first place.

To quote from my earlier post:

The new model attempts to be more rigourous by updating the FAT every time
a block of data is written. Thus the "hammering" of the physical memory
hosting the FAT record.

In view of the nature of flash memory this may actually be drastically
increasing the chance that the whole FAT gets erased.

If a pullout occurs during write , there is now a near 50% chance that
this takes out the entire FAT.

Now if that analysis is inaccurate I'd like be corrected. But flash has to  
be zeroed to be written. If every second write is zeroing the FAT this  
would seem much more likely to destroy the whole fs than to provide better  
protection from a untimely pull-out.


[Note: I am not subscribed to LKML, if you wish me to recieve any follow
ups please BCC: col-pepper at piments point com . thx]
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