On Tue, 14 Dec 2010 13:45:55 -0600 les <hlhowell@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 09:50 -0700, Patrick Kobly wrote: > > On 12/17/2010 5:10 AM, Parshwa Murdia wrote: > > > You say correctly, 'The "best" programming language, is the one you > > > feel most comfortable with, obviously.' As I am new and starting > > > just, so I guess (with all the suggestions I get and from searching > > > too) that either Python or C language would be a good start. Pascal > > > is now less used. > > > > The thing to keep in mind here is what is the purpose of the language > > you're choosing for this step in your journey. You are clearly not > > going to be writing production software for some time. You are > > choosing a language that will serve as a canvas for early-stages > > learning. At this point, you probably want to evaluate your tools in > > terms of their pedagogic advantages, rather than practical advantages > > for implementing working production software. > > > > Keep in mind that many first year programming / computing science > > classes use toy languages - purposely kept small to illustrate a few > > programming concepts without distracting you with other concepts. > > > > IMHO, a first learning language should introduce concepts including: > > * Variables > > * Typing of variables (strong typing) > > * Arrays > > * Data structures > > * Boolean logic expressions > > * Flow control and looping (if, then, else ; while ; for,to) > > * Procedure and / or function calls > > * Formal parameters vs. actual parameters > > * Recursion > > * Equivalence of recursion and iteration > > * Compilation > > * Compile-time vs. Run-time errors > > A first programming language should avoid concepts like: > > * Pointers (at least in the C conception of them, breaking the > > typing system) > > * Dynamic typing > > * Polymorphism > > * Inheritance > > That in mind, my suggestion for a first language would generally be > > more similar to Pascal or Modula-2 than C, Python, C++, Java,... > > > > > However, I agree with you that programing principles remain the same > > > for any language, indeed. > > > > Principles remain the same for particular collections of languages. > > The principles at play in functional languages (LISP, Prolog,...) are > > different than those of procedural languages (Pascal, Modula-2, C) > > which are different still from OO languages (C++, Java, SmallTalk, > > Python) - though OO shares more with procedural than functional > > languages. > > > I see a lot of complaints about pointers in all these messages, telling > this novice to avoid them. But the fact is that all languages rely on > pointers. Even the beloved scripting languages so many tout, cannot > exist without pointers. > > The fact is that all data in the computer resides in memory or on disk > or some other file system. Every file system depends on pointers. If > you look for example (using one of the oldest and free forms that is > easily accessible) FAT 16, The base structure starts with the location > 0, which is a pointer to a data store describing the disk. In turn, > from that you find pointers to the partition table. From that you find > pointers to the FAT table itself, and to the data. From the fat table > you get an array of indexed pointers to data segments which are pointers > to boundaries of data blocks, and from the partition table you get a > description of the sector layout, the retrieval blocking and other > information about the structure, which allow you to decode the FAT table > and extract the data. > > The beloved object oriented folks have pointers built in, that are used > to access the procedures that affect the objects. The objects are in > fact structures, which are created in blocks and again pointers are used > to reference that information. When you use an array, that is an > indexed offset from a pointer. > > Someone said pointers break the typing. That is not true, if you do not > break pointer typing to begin with. That is a pointer can be typed, and > moreover someone who uses an integer for a pointer is voiding type > control in his program. > > No knowing pointers means not having any clue to how the underlying > structure works and leads to weak programming. > > I strongly encourage every beginning programmer to learn pointers, > pointer usage and pointer math to understand some of the mechanisms that > make programs break. A programmer who doesn't understand the strengths > and weaknesses of pointers is like a plumber who doesn't know how pipes > work and what makes a manifold. He can hack around, but he cannot > diagnose when plumbing makes noises, doesn't flow correctly or even > backflows. > > That is my opinion. Maybe I am out to lunch, but has anyone seen any > language that didn't access memory? > > Regards, > Les H > > -- Being out to lunch is good....I prefer good food myself. I could not agree more emphatically with your points.... Ranjan:-) -- users mailing list users@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
