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  On 10/15/10 3:48 PM, JD wrote:
>    On 10/15/2010 11:23 AM, James McKenzie wrote:
>>     On 10/15/10 10:52 AM, Terry Polzin wrote:
>>> On Fri, 2010-10-15 at 13:15 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>>>> On 10/14/10 5:10 PM, Tom H wrote:
>>>>> The list info on
>>>>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users  states that
>>>>> "this list provides community assistance, encouragement, and advice
>>>>> for Fedora users" without specifying a release version, however the
>>>>> developers would probably appreciate knowing about an F14 problem
>>>>> throughhttp://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test  (for example).
>>>>> -- 
>>>> IMHO F14 is not a Fedora version, given that it hasn't been released
>>>> yet. Same with Rawhide.
>>>>
>>>> poc
>>> There IS a fedora test list.
>> True, for both POC and you.  However, guys coming down on someone like
>> they are a nail and you are a hammer is not very good for FC public
>> relations and sometimes does not get the 'job done.'
>>
>> It just might be good to know what did not work with the beta when the
>> GA comes down and we experience the same problem in this list.  Such
>> information should not be placed into a vacuum or list that gets wiped
>> for each FC 'version'.
>>
>> And Rawhide is a Fedora 'version' as is 14, but they have their own list
>> for now and brokenness and other issues SHOULD go to them.
>>
>> James McKenzie
>>
> James, you can't play the peacemaker and be on the side
> that is clearly WRONG!!!
Maybe in your eyes, but there is the golden rule of use of mailing 
lists:  Post only that is pertinent to the appropriate mailing list.  If 
there is a mailing list for a particular function, that is where the 
post SHOULD go.  Just because the Fedora User mailing list looks like a 
garbage can does not mean it should be.  If there is a test version 
question, that is where the question should go.  It has been stated that 
the Fedora developers do not lurk in this list and problems reported 
here may or may not be corrected.  This is what I call a disservice to 
those who loaded up a test version to look at and report problems.
> Read  my posts immediately prior to this one!!
I did.
> I have read all the guidelines of the list. If anything, they
> support and backup my statements.
> This is a general users list for anything "fedora"
> REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT THERE ARE
> DEDICATED LISTS OR FORUMS FOR THAT SPECIFIC
> FEDORA ISSUE.
> As I stated:  for just about every issue posted here,
> there is a dedicated list or form. Are you going to tell
> every user to stop posting on this list and go to that
> dedicated list or forum?
No, I'm not.  The best situation that I can show of off-topic but yet 
on-topic postings is the question on Apache.  This really needs to be 
addressed in the Apache forums, but I did not jump on this person's 
question and state that they had 'posted an off-topic message and to 
take this elsewhere.'

> If this were an actual rule of this list, this list would be
> empty!
>
Not necessarily.  Again, we don't want this list to be a 'failure to 
communicate' which is a real poor reflection on this project.  Again, if 
the problem involves problems with a test version, that is where the 
question should go.  The Fedora developers don't read this list (as far 
as anyone here has stated, I would love to be incorrect in this.)

The purpose of this list is for user support by other users and 
sometimes, RedHat folks.  Most of the answers I see here are from people 
like you, a user and me, a user.  We really cannot help folks fix 
serious brokenness in a test build, and that is not what we are here 
for.  Correct me if I'm wrong.  The same applies for RawHide, the high 
rate of change version of Fedora.  There are other lists for some of the 
programs that are supplied by the Fedora project, but if it has to do 
with Fedora it is allowed here.  Again the emphasis is that users will 
receive general help in most cases.  There have been threads that 
definitely were not Fedora oriented, but they were very lively and gave 
out very good and helpful information.

Posting messages relating to test versions are not usually tracked in a 
general user forum/mailing list.  This causes problems when there are 
problems that this forum cannot answer.

One thing that I'm not going to do, that others have done is jump on 
folks that post here about FC 14 or Rawhide.  I might give them a gentle 
reminder that the assistance they will receive here will not be as high 
quality nor have the authority of people in the other lists and then 
direct them to the appropriate list where they should receive better 
assistance.  I will state again "You can draw more 'bees' with honey 
than you ever can with vinegar" is a statement that I've found to work 
time and time again.  We don't need to crush folks because they posted 
here, but rather be gentle with them.  Can we ALL do this?  Yes, I think 
we can and more importantly, should.

James McKenzie

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